Tonicisserious wrote:how safe are these in the hands of a layman?

TENS and related technology are absolutely safe as long as you follow some simple precautions. Most importantly, do not use over any electronic implants such as a pacemaker, insulin pump or deep brain stimulator (i.e. for Parkinson's Disease). While the current is extremely low, those devices an very sensitive to electrical changes. Along the same lines, avoid putting the electrodes over the body's two most electrically-sensitive organs, the brain and heart. Specifically, never place two electrodes over the heart on the chest and back simultaneously because your heart would then be in the middle of a potential electrical circuit. And depending on whether this unit causes muscle spasms, you'd also went to avoid putting around the neck, and stomach after a meal.

Other then the above precautions, these are perfectly Safe b use. In fact, most of the warnings don't apply to this model because the electrodes are mounted on a belt. For example, it's unlikely that you'd place that on the neck.

I work for RS Medical, a company the develops and sells Electrical Stimulator Devices. The TENS that we sell is by far the most popular device we have as of now.

A person can feel pain or movement, like friction, but not both at the same time. Whatever one is more dominate at the time, that is the sensation the body feels. That is why when you hit your head on something, it is a natural reaction to rub the spot you bumped. The sensation of rubbing your head is greater than the throbbing of the soar and so you feel less pain. That is also why the dentist will jiggle your cheek when administering the numbing agent via needle to your gums. The movement of the cheeks is greater than the pain of the needle.

A TENS unit woks much the same way but instead of creating the movement feeling were the pain is, it creates the distraction near the spinal column. In the lumbar part of ones back, there is a gate where pain feeling is channeled through. The TENS device stimulates that aria and presto, reduced pain.

To say one is shocked is an incorrect statement.

This is not a Muscle Stimulator therefore it does not correct the issue if it is a muscular issue. Also, it will not give one nice abs as it is not contracting muscles. Even if it did contract muscles there is no way the device would burn the layer of fat over them.

A interferential muscle simulator is the best option to treat a problem and a TENS is good just to relieve pain. I am not sure how well this TENS unit is as there are different sine waves that create the distraction feeling. I am sure some work better than others.

mcampbel14 wrote:To suggest that some definitive answer has been reached about the efficacy of Chiro or Acupuncture has been reached is simply ridiculous.

And yet you've been saying all throughout this thread that you know it's effective because of your personal experiences with it.

All I'm trying to get you to realize is:
1. Yours is a unique story that probably does merit further study, but you shouldn't be considering it proof that a treatment works and telling other people to get that treatment as a result.
2. That Western medicine has failed or that the infrastructure surrounding it has faced corruption doesn't do anything to give merit to other forms or systems of medicine.
3. An imperfect understanding of how our bodies work is not evidence that any treatment is valid, 'standard' or 'alternative.'

I'm glad to hear that your dad got better, and I won't say 100% that it wasn't the acupuncture, but the unlikelihood that acupuncture could work for something like that is greater than the unlikelihood that he improved all on his own. I hear the same sort of stories from strongly religious folks saying that it was prayer that made their mother's cancer go into remission, when in fact sometimes cancer just goes into remission anyways.

As for aspirin... I'm not really sure that the use of willow bark for headaches was ever considered quackery, to be honest.

[quote postid="3838253" user="FreePlayPSP"]

Guess what? We don't know everything about the human body.

This is perhaps the only unbiased comment you have posted. Suggestion: stop attending NESS meetings for a couple of months.

Webfoot08 wrote:There's no convincing someone with a closed mind, I realize, but I will try to explain further and in detail what I'm saying so you will understand a little better.

Two years of conventional, mainstream, widely-accepted-by-the-AMA therapies had little or no effect on the pain. That means that even after all that medical intervention, I was still in pain. It was just as bad after two years as it had been in the beginning. To my way of thinking, this means that none of those things worked, or there would have been a lessening of the pain somewhere during those two years.

Did I say that clearly enough? If not, please let me know and I'll give it another try.

Labor and Industries had just ruled my condition static and incurable, with no further improvement expected without surgery, and they had terminated all treatments. That was in June.

Throughout July, August, and part of September, I could barely move because of the pain. I stopped the narcotic pain medication because I couldn't stand living in a fog, and as a result, the pain intensified again. I took anti-inflammatories and muscle relaxers just so I could get through my day. I was STILL in pain at that point. The conventional therapies mentioned above had OBVIOUSLY not worked.

A friend offered to pay for an acupuncture treatment. She convinced me that a friend of hers could help me. Since I didn't have to pay for the treatment, I went ahead and gave it a try, but I didn't think it would work. I did it mostly so she would stop talking about it.

It worked. I have been pain-free ever since.

It would be disingenuous and naive to say the cessation of the pain was due to all the mainstream therapies that had been terminated three months previously. To say that is just plain reaching and grasping at straws. Why would they not work at all for two years, then suddenly, out of the blue and after three months cessation, bring a complete retroactive cure? Sorry, that is just too much of a fantasy for me to accept.

And what an amazing coincidence it would be, at the exact moment of the acupuncture treatment, if all the benefit from those failed mainstream therapies suddenly magically coalesced and effected a cure! What are the odds?

The acupuncture treatment cured my back pain, and whether or not you like that fact, I know it to be true. I also recommended acupuncture to my brother to lessen the side effects of chemo and radiation in his cancer treatment, and he has had such a benefit from them that his doctors at Cedars-Sinai have been able to greatly reduce his steroid dosage.

Maybe in your severely constrained and unaccepting mind, acupuncture never works, but those of us who have benefited from it know that it truly does work, it absolutely does.

I forgot to mention that it also worked on my cousins allergies. Within 6 months he was cured of allergies completely-also something psychological? placebo?

Webfoot08 wrote:There's no convincing someone with a closed mind, I realize, but I will try to explain further and in detail what I'm saying so you will understand a little better.

There's a difference between being closed-minded and being skeptical. I can be convinced by evidence. Could anything ever convince you that it wasn't the acupuncture? If not, then it's your mind that is closed.

Webfoot08 wrote:It would be disingenuous and naive to say the cessation of the pain was due to all the mainstream therapies that had been terminated three months previously. To say that is just plain reaching and grasping at straws. Why would they not work at all for two years, then suddenly, out of the blue and after three months cessation, bring a complete retroactive cure? Sorry, that is just too much of a fantasy for me to accept.

How about the idea of your body fixing itself in a manner that happens to coincide with receiving acupuncture?

Webfoot08 wrote:The acupuncture treatment cured my back pain, and whether or not you like that fact, I know it to be true.

Then we know whose mind is really closed.

Webfoot08 wrote:Maybe in your severely constrained and unaccepting mind, acupuncture never works, but those of us who have benefited from it know that it truly does work, it absolutely does.

Thank you for the extreme misrepresentation of everything I've said here!

shmusie wrote:I forgot to mention that it also worked on my cousins allergies. Within 6 months he was cured of allergies completely-also something psychological? placebo?

People do outgrow allergies on their own, you know.

I would encourage both you and Webfoot08 to look up "post hoc, ergo propter hoc."

FreePlayPSP wrote:Notice that every single symptom that it has been shown to be able to treat is something that can be treated by a placebo? Pain, hot flashes, nausea, cramps, etc. I have repeatedly said that acupuncture has been shown to work no better than placebo, so it's no surprise that it can actually work as a placebo in many cases.

Your logic is flawed. Both the Mayo clinic and The American Cancer Society conclude the lack of firm results can be explained, in part, by the difficulty of devising a realistic but inactive stand-in for acupuncture.

Your logic, as I follow it is, if I take a medication for pain and it works and you take a placebo for pain and it works, my medication is ineffective and only as good as a placebo. Thus making it useless.

Now I have never had acupuncture but I have had acupressure to relieve chronic migraines. It worked very well. Now after 6 days of my head feeling like it was being split by a pick axe, 4 trips to the doctor followed by 3 different prescription painkillers and finally being recommended for a cat scan. The hour getting different pressure points worked over, finally made it go away. But hey, maybe I just needed a sugar pill.

I love rational people. Thank you for your post. Seriously.

FreePlayPSP wrote:FYI: This thing is an electronic acupuncture machine without the needles.

Acupuncture is a totally unscientific Chinese "treatment" based on both astrology and the idea that human bodies have some sort of ethereal energy flowing through them.

The best studies into acupuncture have shown that there is no difference whatsoever between fake acupuncture (i.e. acupuncture done at random points) and "real" acupuncture, and that neither performs better than a standard placebo.

Waste your money if you want, but the same "treatment" could be achieved for free with a good sugar pill.

FreePlayPSP wrote:Except that the entire practice of chiropractic started out as just that. They just called it "innate intelligence" instead of chi.

That has no more bearing on the value of chiropractic then phrenology has on modern psychology, or then Penicillin's accidental discovery has on modern pharmacology.

The origin is moot. The only important factor here is the soundness of the practice. Like I said, acupuncture may be up in the air, but chiropractic is not.

superjerms wrote:That has no more bearing on the value of chiropractic then phrenology has on modern psychology, or then Penicillin's accidental discovery has on modern pharmacology.

The origin is moot. The only important factor here is the soundness of the practice. Like I said, acupuncture may be up in the air, but chiropractic is not.

Like I said:

FreePlayPSP wrote:Some chiropractors are trying to reform the practice from within by abandoning all the old vestiges of vitalistic energy medicine for more scientifically supported approaches. It's really hit or miss unless you know what to ask any particular chiropractor.

There are plenty of chiropractors out there who still practice chiropractic as the discredited 'energy medicine' modality that it began as. Not all of them have hitched their wagon to the reform movement.

mcampbel14 wrote:They were not cherry picking the patients for moral reasons let me assure you. I was in those meetings. They were picking the patients that would make their drugs look as good as possible. As to exemptions for alternative treatments....I would agree that the supplement industry etc should be better regulated. But take a look at the number of fatalities that are caused by main stream medicine and medication (asprin causes thousands of deaths a year for God's sake) and tell me that all the acupuncturists, chiropractors and massage therapists in the world equal even a small percentage of the damage done by 'scientifically proven medicine.' My point is not to suggest that Western medicine doesn't save many thousands of lives, my point is that if a treatment improves a patient, that is a treatment that works...period. And your earlier statement about willow bark and asprin just proved my point. A treatment considered to be quackery is proved to be effective and improved for modern medicine. Remember that just a few years ago, scientists were claiming that eggs were the devil and caused high cholesterol....I'm talking less than ten years. Every year there are widely accepted medical 'truths' that are changed or completely overturned. To suggest that some definitive answer about the efficacy of Chiro or Acupuncture has been reached is simply ridiculous.

Isn't it interesting how the ads for new medications that are shown on TV always say that I, the viewer, may really, really NEED this medication, that I should ask my doctor for this wonderful new cure-all, that I may live forever if I take it, that I'm probably one of the lucky people who will be given a new lease on life, I'll be more attractive and more successful, that everything will be perfect for in my life if I can just get my hands on this new pill...

... but it might kill me.

That just cracks me up. Big Pharma has its amusement value, as tainted as it is by their heartlessness.

shmusie wrote:Furthermore, Reston wrote in his article that it decreased his post surgery pain tremendously-he did not write anything about it distracting him.

He wrote that his post-surgery pain was alleviated with an injection of painkillers a few hours after leaving the operating room.

Of the needles inserted his limbs the following night, to alleviate the "considerable discomfort if not pain" of abdominal distention, Reston writes: "That sent ripples of pain racing through my limbs and, at least, had the effect of diverting my attention from the distress in my stomach."

(James Reston, "Now, About My Operation in Peking", New York Times, Monday July 26, 1971)

When we have an ailment, three things can happen:

1. It gets worse.
2. It gets better.
3. It stays the same.

If you have something that's not killing you after six days, it's probably going away on its own.

The placebo effect is real. Did you know that the way placebos are administered and who they are administered by make a difference. The color and size of the placebos also makes a difference.

A placebo's effectiveness is also equal to its invasiveness. Sticking needles in the back is a lot more invasive than "i'm not sure, take a couple aspirin and, if it doesn't get any better, call me in a week".

Pretty neat stuff.

Let's hear it for James Randi.

cottonmouth116 wrote:Your logic is flawed. Both the Mayo clinic and The American Cancer Society conclude the lack of firm results can be explained, in part, by the difficulty of devising a realistic but inactive stand-in for acupuncture.

Your logic, as I follow it is, if I take a medication for pain and it works and you take a placebo for pain and it works, my medication is ineffective and only as good as a placebo. Thus making it useless.

Now I have never had acupuncture but I have had acupressure to relieve chronic migraines. It worked very well. Now after 6 days of my head feeling like it was being split by a pick axe, 4 trips to the doctor followed by 3 different prescription painkillers and finally being recommended for a cat scan. The hour getting different pressure points worked over, finally made it go away. But hey, maybe I just needed a sugar pill.

FreePlayPSP wrote:Thank you for the extreme misrepresentation of everything I've said here!

Whatever. I'll be smiling at this little exchange while I do gardening tomorrow - pain free!

Thanks to my acupuncture treatment.

Webfoot08 wrote:Big Pharma has its amusement value, as tainted as it is by their heartlessness.

If they were heartless, they wouldn't warn you that it could kill you.

Webfoot08 wrote:Whatever. I'll be smiling at this little exchange while I do gardening tomorrow - pain free!

Thanks to my acupuncture treatment.

Again: What evidence would convince you that it wasn't the acupuncture? If you say "none," will you accept that it's you, in fact, that is closed-minded?

I've repeatedly said that acupuncture works as a placebo. You made it sound like I said it NEVER works. That's called an extreme misrepresentation.

It's so much easier to argue against a position that someone doesn't actually hold, isn't it?

TENS units are very safe to use. Should avoid use if you have a pacemaker or if pregnant. Even those two conditions are controversial.

mistersnickers wrote:I love rational people. Thank you for your post. Seriously.

Actually there are many studies that have shown benefits of acupuncture in dealing with pain and even control of heart rate and blood pressure. TENS units work through something called the gate theory however...

FreePlayPSP wrote:I'm glad that you think you know what I do with my life, but seriously, bugger off. Either actually address what I've said or don't reply.

One lure of the internet is that it facillitates finding "facts" and "people" who think "just like me".
My comment was a reply to your passionate postings: it would seem that your campaign this evening is fueled by a blog with a goal of debunking numerous treatment modalities deamed unscientific, buttressed by NESS favorites. Disclosure of your sources shows their redundancy and extremely narrow view of what they perceive as real science.

cottonmouth116 wrote:Your logic is flawed. Both the Mayo clinic and The American Cancer Society conclude the lack of firm results can be explained, in part, by the difficulty of devising a realistic but inactive stand-in for acupuncture.

This is no longer the case, because placebo and sham acupuncture have been used quite often in the past few years, the conclusion being that acupuncture with needles stuck in random places, acupuncture with needles that don't pierce the skin but give the sensation of treatment, and acupuncture that follows the 'rules' all perform no better than a placebo.

cottonmouth116 wrote:Your logic, as I follow it is, if I take a medication for pain and it works and you take a placebo for pain and it works, my medication is ineffective and only as good as a placebo. Thus making it useless.

No. Placebo does not mean useless. Placebo means placebo. It means that the effect isn't caused by an active ingredient or the treatment itself, but rather the experience of the treatment.

cottonmouth116 wrote:Now I have never had acupuncture but I have had acupressure to relieve chronic migraines. It worked very well. Now after 6 days of my head feeling like it was being split by a pick axe, 4 trips to the doctor followed by 3 different prescription painkillers and finally being recommended for a cat scan. The hour getting different pressure points worked over, finally made it go away. But hey, maybe I just needed a sugar pill.

Again: Post hoc, ergo propter hoc. It's a fallacy. Learn it and love it.

FreePlayPSP wrote:If they were heartless, they wouldn't warn you that it could kill you.

That's an obligatory warning, sir. As you pointed out yourself with Vioxx, they don't care if it kills you, as long as they get paid (and preferably, don't get caught lying).

Roostalee wrote:That's an obligatory warning, sir. As you pointed out yourself with Vioxx, they don't care if it kills you, as long as they get paid (and preferably, don't get caught lying).

Dead patients can't pay, and these people do take their own medications. The idea that they don't care is made ridiculous on its face by the fact that they have friends and families who may use the medicine. Stop painting people as murderous sociopaths, please.

FreePlayPSP wrote:Again: What evidence would convince you that it wasn't the acupuncture? If you say "none," will you accept that it's you, in fact, that is closed-minded?

I've repeatedly said that acupuncture works as a placebo. You made it sound like I said it NEVER works. That's called an extreme misrepresentation.

It's so much easier to argue against a position that someone doesn't actually hold, isn't it?

Oh, just one other thing. I guess billions of Chinese people, who have used and depended on acupuncture as a successful medicinal treatment since the second century, have it all wrong.

Maybe you should talk to a trained professional Chinese acupuncture practitioner and tell them that the work they do merely produces a placebo effect.

I'd love to witness a conversation like that. They'd think you were insane.

There is no evidence whatsoever that chi exists, let alone that manipulating the flow of chi can cause any sort of change in the body.



Well, I can't provide direct evidence of chi, but my neurologist told me about a study in which they imaged the brain of a blindfolded man while applying needles to the particular acupuncture meridians that are associated with the eyes, and the visual center in the brain lit up. So I wouldn't say there is "no evidence what so ever, just not very strong empirical evidence. I know it exists myself, as much as I know my keyboard exists, because like my keyboard, I can feel it.

Webfoot08 wrote:Oh, just one other thing. I guess billions of Chinese people, who have used and depended on acupuncture as a successful medicinal treatment since the second century, have it all wrong.

Maybe you should talk to a trained professional Chinese acupuncture practitioner and tell them that the work they do merely produces a placebo effect.

I'd love to witness a conversation like that. They'd think you were insane.

Or maybe just an arrogant Westerner. As stated in the previous rants, there are many things about the human body that modern medicine, Western or not, cannot explain. I'll agree that most research probably denounces acupuncture, but that is certainly no absolute truth, and gives NO ONE the credibility to say with absolute certainty that it's snake oil without admitting it's merely his/her own opinion.

FreePlayPSP wrote:Or you could go to a physical therapist, undergo a treatment regimen, and have the problem actually go away over time.

Sure, chiropractic can provide temporary relief to some forms of back pain, but that's just a happy accident, not the original intent of the modality.

I've been reading all of your rebuttals and this is one of the least thought out. I was undergoing a physical therapy regiment and nutritional plan from my chiropractor - there's more than just popping. And as for the happy accident that you refer to - if you get the right doctor the adjustments are very specific. I've seen hypertonic muscles relax following adjustments addressing that specific vertebral level. I've seen extremity adjustments, such as a patient that had a laterally displaced scapula that was causing pain. Following the adjustment there was an improved ROM and it was back in it's anatomical position. A placebo isn't going to put that scapula back into place. Have you ever seen a dislocated patella? Yes it can hurt and putting it back in place usually provides immediate relief....that's not quackery. I dare you to give that patient a sugar pill and see how it works out. Some bones may not misalign to that extent but may move enough to cause discomfort or pain that an adjustment may take care of. As for innate intelligence - the point to get from it is that your body has a natural (innate) ability to heal itself which any doctor would agree. And if chiropractors choose to no longer use that terminology for whatever reason they have the right to do so...but you don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water. We didn't throw out the medical profession after they were chaining people to walls because they had bad spirits causing illness or dysfunction. You have an interesting agenda....many doctors now have accepted other disciplines and have no problem with concurrent care or referring out.

FreePlayPSP? more like mr. buzzkill.

Seriously though, why do you insist on being a goon? People have a right to use whatever remedies, scientific or unscientific, on their bodies.

I can understand your passion for scientific facts, but everyone has their own beliefs and opinions on certain issues. All your bantering does is make you sound like an annoying religious zealot.

FreePlayPSP wrote:FYI: This thing is an electronic acupuncture machine without the needles.

Acupuncture is a totally unscientific Chinese "treatment" based on both astrology and the idea that human bodies have some sort of ethereal energy flowing through them.

The best studies into acupuncture have shown that there is no difference whatsoever between fake acupuncture (i.e. acupuncture done at random points) and "real" acupuncture, and that neither performs better than a standard placebo.

Waste your money if you want, but the same "treatment" could be achieved for free with a good sugar pill.

Don't say "the best studies" as if you did some research as I'm pretty sure you just heard that while watching the show Bull**** on showtime.

Also just because they can't prove theirs an energy running through the body, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. For example no one can prove god exists but I don't question peoples belief in him. And the fact that you said it's based on astrology only convinces me how little you actually know about acupuncture.

And if this treatment is so ineffective then why do multi million dollar sports franchises use it to treat their athletes i.e. Sam Cassell and Steve Nash.

I hope poor FreePlay doesn't blow a gasket! I can say that for me TENS is a useful tool in my arsenal for dealing with low-back pain (L5-S1 bilateral herniations). I have not used this particular unit, but have for many years used a model made by EMPI.

FreePlay made his error in logic early on claiming that this unit worked based on the concepts and principles of acupuncture, however while the word "acupuncture" does appear in the ad copy, nowhere is the claim made that the design or functioning of this unit is based on acupuncture.

To me, FreePlay appears to be an over zealous student perhaps, who just recently has gotten into argumentation and debate and is eager to try to put it to use, completely unaware of how his behavior appears to others. Best of luck to him, and may he find peace and balance soon.

BTW, FreePlay's error, or logical fallacy if you will, is known as a "red herring", wrongly implying that the ad claims that the unit's design is based on acupuncture, which it does not, then proceeding to focus his argument against acupuncture. Does acupuncture "work"? Whatever - not relevant here - it was just FreePlay's "red herring".

Good night y'all!

Roostalee wrote:Or maybe just an arrogant Westerner. As stated in the previous rants, there are many things about the human body that modern medicine, Western or not, cannot explain. I'll agree that most research probably denounces acupuncture, but that is certainly no absolute truth, and gives NO ONE the credibility to say with absolute certainty that it's snake oil without admitting it's merely his/her own opinion.

I agree. There's also the thought that applying Western styles of research to an Eastern medical practice is not wise - the two modalities of thinking are very far apart when it comes to cause and effect.

The Chinese have believed for centuries that they can control the flow of "chi" or energy, in the body. Most Westerners - with the exception of some who have practiced certain kinds of martial arts - have no basis of knowledge of that concept, so have no idea what to think of it.

It's like two people trying to hold a conversation, but one speaks only Chinese and the other speaks only English.

I can only imagine the bemusement of Chinese physicians witnessing Westerners trying to analyze and categorize their practices using scientific methods that don't really relate or apply to what's being studied. Yet Western scientists and skeptics will persist in trying to define, control, and duplicate something they don't even understand at the most basic level.

Eventually, the whole thing just becomes silly, not to mention fruitless. And besides, when you get right down to it, acupuncture stands on its own as a valid practice. It doesn't need the approval or understanding of Western scientists, and it doesn't have to care if they disapprove of it. And neither do I.

Since this has become derailed despite not believing in acupuncture and faith healing it does annoy me to no end the ignorance in everyone speaking of "chi", it is spelled "qi"

I raised sons through high school sports with the help of an earlier version of this TENS unit.

When the unit is on there is definite relief! My older TENS uses one 9V battery and it goes for years without being replaced. The highest setting are way too intense, but the medium and lower settings (variable dial) allow the user to adjust the unit to the desired relief-point.

On rare occasion when I pull a back muscle this thing is a life-saver. Not sure it is for chronic back pain, but for the occasional user who needs immediate relief, it is worth its weight in gold. Once you remove the unit the pain returns, but for the 30-60 mins you are wearing it, the back pain relief is very appreciated.

I paid 3x this for my TENS. Grab this one while you can.

FreePlayPSP wrote:FYI: This thing is an electronic acupuncture machine without the needles.

Acupuncture is a totally unscientific Chinese "treatment" based on both astrology and the idea that human bodies have some sort of ethereal energy flowing through them.

The best studies into acupuncture have shown that there is no difference whatsoever between fake acupuncture (i.e. acupuncture done at random points) and "real" acupuncture, and that neither performs better than a standard placebo.

Waste your money if you want, but the same "treatment" could be achieved for free with a good sugar pill.

have you ever had treatments by acupuncture before? and what best studies are you talking about...i've had plenty of treatments for different problems and i can say they work for me at least. everyone is different, im not sure about this tens thing but don't confuse it with real acupuncture.

FreePlayPSP wrote:As for the claim that "my chiropractor uses this so it's legit": Chiropractic, similarly is based on the idea that energy is flowing through your body, and by aligning your spine, you ease the flow of the energy and cause beneficial changes in various parts of the body.

It's complete and utter nonsense. It's a placebo that pays for the practitioner's Corvette.

I for one can call complete BS on your statement. I have a hereditary condition that causes the cartilege in my hip sockets to deteriorate over time. The condition is worse in my right hip than my left, and as of now, my right hip is nearly 2 centimeters(about 2/3 of an inch) higher than the left. I go to a chiropractor, because that is the best option for me. The Chiro is able to put my hip back into alignment with the other hip, as the deterioration is not complete, and it can hold my hip in the proper place for a few days or so at a time. I currently have to go twice a month, and according to my real doctor, doing this has kept me from having to undergo surgery to fix the problem. so...

IS CHIROPRACTIC WORK A PLACEBO AFFECT? NO.

FreePlayPSP wrote:As for the claim that "my chiropractor uses this so it's legit": Chiropractic, similarly is based on the idea that energy is flowing through your body, and by aligning your spine, you ease the flow of the energy and cause beneficial changes in various parts of the body.

It's complete and utter nonsense. It's a placebo that pays for the practitioner's Corvette.

Go back to playing your PSP...

Many people find chiropractors an essentials means of managing chronic pain and injury rehabilitation. Its not ancient chinese secrets with "energy flow", its a holistic concept with the idea that your body is smart enough to recover from certain injuries once reminded of proper alignment. Kind of makes sense... if you can't turn your neck because its painful, you're going to avoid that motion. If you avoid that motion, then theres a good possibility the neck will get stiffer and stiffer.

And if you're young, you probably won't know what chronic pain is... but just you wait.

Hmm... I retract my initial statement, maybe you do something active rather than the PSP. ;-)

shmusie wrote:Let me get this straight-so when Kissinger and Nixon were in China and Kissinger had his appendix removed by acupuncture and no anesthia (these are all documented historical facts) that could have been done with a placebo or a sugar pill??
Come on-acupuncture is real sir!

------------------------------
ORLY? "Documented Historical Facts" huh?

Don't listen to idiots who can't even use wikipedia, much less a scientific journal.
-The Kissinator NEVER had his appendix out in China. (facepalm)
-The man who DID have his appendix removed (Reston) was sedated using *standard medicine* (whee drugs!).
-It was his post-operative pain which was partially treated with acupuncture, but who knows what drugs he was on as well
-A later case where someone was cut open supposedly only under acupuncture was shown to be FRAUD (that person was, in fact, drugged up).

Acupuncture has, time and time again, been shown to have an effect no better than a placebo in studies not written by the acupuncturist. That means there may be some pain relief, but it is not acupuncture doing it. But people selling this stuff will LIE using bogus info (just like the above poster) to sell you their 'alternative' viewpoint. Do we really want to go back to the time of burning witches?

This 'device' is just another gimmick hucksters are using to separate people from their paycheck- a gee-whiz snakeoil machine with flashing lights. Don't give these charlatans your money so they can keep committing fraud.

Buy some Woot-Wine; it'll do something, I promise.

note: I realize that at least one person has pointed out some of this. I think it bears repeating.

shmusie wrote:
Let me get this straight-so when Kissinger and Nixon were in China and Kissinger had his appendix removed by acupuncture and no anesthia (these are all documented historical facts) that could have been done with a placebo or a sugar pill??
Come on-acupuncture is real sir!
--------------------------------------

FreePlayPSP wrote:Kissinger did not have his appendix removed. A man named James Reston had his appendix removed, and he underwent a STANDARD WESTERN-STYLE APPENDECTOMY, WITH anesthesia. It was the treatment of PAIN afterward that was done through acupuncture, and even for THAT, Reston said that all it did was distract him from the pain from surgery. He told Kissinger this and Kissinger raved about acupuncture to Nixon, who then instituted a research program into acupuncture.

This took me all of five minutes to find out online. Why didn't you bother to check what you were saying?

It was a Placebo comment, Intended to relieve the worry away from the purchase of this item.
SIR! LOL
-------
Some folks are like that.
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I have a 5800.00 unit in my closet that does the exact same thing as this belt but it's fancier. Has timers and 5 sections and you can set it to go back and fourth and you look like spider man got drunk and attacked you when you use it.
It was never prescribed to me for pain, I didn't even pay for it, workermans comp did. It was prescribed for Muscle stimulation for the prevention of Atrophy while recovering from sugery.
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This type of unit was brought out in the 70's by Bruce Lee if I remember correctly -

To develop abdominal Muscles.

well, I guess the US government is just plain stupid or crazy, from the University of Maryland Medical center's web page:

In 1997, the U.S. National Institutes of Health (NIH) formally recognized acupuncture as a mainstream medicine healing option with a statement documenting the procedure’s safety and efficacy for treating a range of health conditions. While awareness of acupuncture is growing, many conventional physicians are still unfamiliar with both the theory and practice of acupuncture.

There are now hundreds of clinical studies on the benefits of acupuncture now. Many of these clinical studies are performed in China. Acupuncture has been used successfully in the treatment of conditions ranging from musculoskeletal problems (back pain, neck pain, and others), nausea, migraine headache, anxiety, and insomnia.

so for all those success studies, they are all just all placebo effects.

The FDA permits the sale of these items with the authorization of a physician.

It is illegal to sell TENS units without a scrip.

TENS Units (Transcutaneous Electrical Nerve Stimulators) can be sold only to someone with a prescription in the USA. eBay does not allow the listing of TENS units on their site. This item should be removed.