tenshineko wrote:There have been many posts by people that have noted that they went through other medical treatments with no change in their condition, then tried acupuncture and it worked. If it was a placebo effect, why didn't the other treatments work?
As I have repeatedly said, the fact that they improved after acupuncture does not mean the acupuncture CAUSED the improvement! "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc" ring a bell?
tenshineko wrote:Freeplay, it would probably help if you didn't sound like you have a major agenda and extreme bias. Considering how vehemently you defended pharmacists as not being heartless, it makes me wonder about your profession.
I'm an EDITOR. I write technical manuals. I just happen to CARE about science and good medicine. My agenda is promoting science and discouraging pseudoscience.
tenshineko wrote:You claim that people who believe acupuncture works are the ones with the closed minds
No, actually, I didn't claim anything of the sort. I said that if there is absolutely no evidence that could convince you that you're wrong, you have a closed mind. It just happened that the person who fit this description was a believer in acupuncture.
tenshineko wrote:Refusing to change your position regardless of what is presented to you and finding excuses to disregard anything that doesn't fit in with your belief is the definition of being close minded.
That is EXACTLY WHAT I SAID.
tenshineko wrote:It would be like me saying that "Oh yes, chemotherapy does have an effect, but it's bogus because it's a placebo" and saying that makes me open minded because I said chemotherapy had an effect - never mind that I followed it up with a "but it's bogus."
tenshineko wrote:I also couldn't help but wonder how placebos work on babies and animals (something you said earlier), if they don't have the ability to recognize they are undergoing a treatment.
Really? You think infants and animals can't figure out that they're undergoing a treatment? Give a crying baby food sometime and tell me that they don't recognize that it's fulfilling a need.
tenshineko wrote:I found it particularly amazing how often you felt it necessary to comment, especially in the first few pages, where you were incessantly posting, sometimes not even in response to other people. Considering how dogmatic you are, perhaps you are an MD who was driven out of business by acupuncturists and chiropracters? Either that or a troll.
Or someone who is trying to prevent people from wasting their money on nonsense.
tenshineko wrote:Medical science has come a LONG way, and there are a lot of things that people thought were unexplainable that turned out to simply be unexplainable at that time. Seriously, just look at medicine a few decades ago. With more knowledge and methods of testing, we have made amazing strides in a very small period of time.
No matter of "we don't know everything" is ever support for "treatment X works." Ever.
tenshineko wrote:Asian cultures have been using acupunture for centuries, and they also have a very solid belief in chi for healing and control of the body - just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it doesn't exist or work.
Actually, no, that's not entirely true. Modern acupuncture is really less than a hundred years old. Chinese practitioners completely overhauled their practices in an attempt to make them more palatable to the world. What we see as acupuncture now is quite different from what it used to be.
tenshineko wrote:They've proved it to their satisfaction, so leave it be. Eastern and Western philosophies are too different to compare.
So if they've proved to their satisfaction that the sun goes around the Earth, does that mean that, in China, the sun actually goes around the Earth? Or are we dealing with a single reality that is consistent everywhere?
tenshineko wrote:And to the gentleman who thinks that saying "you have nothing to lose" is false - well, if you're in chronic pain and a treatment doesn't work so you're STILL in pain...well, you didn't lose anything, did you? Hope does not count, because if you do nothing, you still have no hope of changing your condition. Would you rather sit and do nothing, or try everything you can before admitting defeat?
I would try what has been shown to work under the best testing conditions. Anything else might wind up with me wasting thousands of dollars.
What's the harm? Plenty.