sdc100 wrote:Guys, here's something a lot of people don't realize. Although is always smart to surge protect computers, there's no need to protect laptops if it has a battery. That's because the battery is like a UPS, providing a buffer between your electrical supply and your laptop. The electricity reaching the laptop's circuitry is therefore clean of spike and dips.

That's an excellent point, but you need to tell the newbs what "UPS" means.

It's not the shipper folks, it means "uninterrupted power supply." Basically a UPS is a battery that should the power spike or "go out," for even a second, the computer switches to using the battery.

You can buy a UPS for your desktop, the good ones being the size of a car battery or bigger.

What he is referring to is that your notebook, if the battery is connected, it functions the same as a desktop UPS, even if the notebook is plugged into an AC outlet.

That said, I don't keep my battery installed when running off AC power. This is because batteries are good for only about 500 to 700 charge cycles and if you keep it installed 24/7 in the notebook you will "use up" those charge cycles sooner.

Then again, since a notebook battery wears out in about three to four years, even if it's not used, might as well keep it installed in your notebook. LOL.

NightGhost wrote:Power surges can occur as power is restored.

ABSOLUTELY! I live in a NYC building so power surges are nearly non-existent. However, nearby wiring upgrades have shut down power a few times. When power was restored, there was a series of brownouts and surges before the lights were steady again ... and I ended up losing a hard drive and DVR.

gslander wrote:AAARRRRGGHHH! need 2000 or better for the joules rating for protecting my electronics, HOWEVER! I am on the fence since for the price it does multiply the outlets and the cover hides the plugs with some protection. Damn you woot how will I get to sleep waffling back and forth buy it/don't buy it, buy it/don't buy it!...........................

With the two you get from this deal, daisy-chain them and double the protection from 1000 to 2000 J :D

*I don't know if chaining them increases protection linearly. Props to the lad who figures out how to stack them elegantly.

In my lifetime and many surge protectors later I never thought of any use... until...thum thum thum.... We had a big "flash" and smoke... After it all settled we realized that we had a surge protector did its job. The protector was obviously fried, but all the equipment still worked. Since then I've been a firm believer.

MichaelSF wrote:What he is referring to is that your notebook, if the battery is connected, it functions the same as a desktop UPS, even if the notebook is plugged into an AC outlet.

That said, I don't keep my battery installed when running off AC power. This is because batteries are good for only about 500 to 700 charge cycles and if you keep it installed 24/7 in the notebook you will "use up" those charge cycles sooner.

I think you're confusing two different aspects of battery behavior. The "500-700" cycles (or whatever the manufacturer rating) is usually for full charge/discharge cycles. If you do a partial discharge, the battery will last that much longer.

The problem with continuously charging batteries does not involve the charge cycles. Topping them off constantly strains the battery, eventually degrading the electrolyte and/or causing microscopic spider shorts to grow between the terminals. Those tiny shorts increase self-discharge, causing the battery to lose its energy quicker even when it's sitting idle. Newer batteries are a little smarter about that and reduce the top-end wear on the battery. In general though it's a good idea not to keep the laptop constantly plugged in.

MichaelSF wrote:These are really nice and I am in for three (6), I especially need the cable organizer feature.

And I have friends and relatives who are getting these as stocking stuffers since they are all negligent when it comes to computers.

Sidenote: These have saved my azz when there's been voltage spikes, events that happen all the time in my town (San Francisco) where we have an antiquated infrastructure (gas and electricity).

You may want to read back a few posts before you give your friends gifts that will make them think their computers are protected when, in fact, they aren't (unless they have laptops, in which case they don't need these at all). Sure this is better than no surge protector, but since you can buy two actual surge protectors rated for computers locally for the same price as these shipped, you aren't doing them any favors, or even getting a good deal.

Ground Loop Issues:

0. Run everything off the same power strip. Preferably an old-fashioned metal-body one.

1. If the power supply to the laptop does not have a ground, try flipping it over and plugging in the other way.

2. Get a circuit connection tester (they have two yellow lights and one red light, and plug in) to make sure the ground on the outlet is correctly installed. Note that this tester will NOT test for neutral-ground reversal; see below.

-- Get the kind of tester that also has a button on it to test for GFCI buttafuocoures. See point 5 below.

3. Use laptop on batteries when playing.

4. Try to find an electrical outlet located closer "upstream" to the building's main circuit breaker, because at that location, the neutral and ground are likely joined together. If this works, try running a heavy extention cord from that outlet (for instance from the basement) to the studio, and run everything off there. In this manner, the ground loop is contained within the extension cord, with a small loop area.

5. Get one of those circuit testers with the GFCI test button. Plug into power strip serving your gear. use tape and eraser from mechanical pencil to force 'test' button to remain engaged. This will provide a high-impedance path to the safety ground, quelling the ground loop. Only use this configuration when needed. This is not standard but it's better than totally floating away from the safety ground.

6. (not standard or correct) Get one of those heated plug-in air fresheners with nightlight, or an INCANDESCENT nightlight, or an INCANDESCENT table lamp, and rewire it using with a 3-prong plug so instead of Hot to Neutral, it goes Neutral to Ground. Plug into power strip serving your other equipment. If done correctly, the air freshener and light should NOT operate. This will provide a high-impedance path from Neutral to Ground to quell loop. LABEL THE ITEM AS BEING MODIFIED. ONLY USE WHEN NEEDED, YOUR RISK ETC.

FYI, If the light glows, you've gone Hot to Ground which is very bad!

overslacked wrote:Try plugging your laptop into either an outlet on a different circuit, or an outlet on the same circuit (whichever the opposite of what you're doing now). But no, there's nothing about this power strip that would eliminate the ground loop over any other power strip.

dmand wrote:UL1449 must be a new one,
Does it compile with gcc too?

Anyone care to geek out? UL 1449 and the 2008 NEC

Hmmmm -

-- There's not been one mention of 'rise time' - you can have LOTS of joules of 'protection' but if the device cannot react in a VERY short amount of time, then the device ain't worth a penny.

-- Last I knew you'd need a rise time of LESS than 7 nanoseconds (7 billionths) - or preferably 5, or even 3 (the shortest I've noticed personally - but I'm not looking really).

-- My newest 'clock radio' still cost $70, so this -might- be a good thing.

.

bear8699 wrote:Hmmmm -

-- There's not been one mention of 'rise time' - you can have LOTS of joules of 'protection' but if the device cannot react in a VERY short amount of time, then the device ain't worth a penny.

-- Last I knew you'd need a rise time of LESS than 7 nanoseconds (7 billionths) - or preferably 5, or even 3 (the shortest I've noticed personally - but I'm not looking really).

-- My newest 'clock radio' still cost $70, so this -might- be a good thing.

.

From the item page:

"Response Time: Less than 1 nanosecond (Rating indicates the unit’s speed in reacting to power disturbances to protect connected equipment.)"

crazyswedishguy wrote:Out of curiosity, does anyone know if there is any chance this helps eliminate ground loop?

I just got a nice Line 6 POD Studio UX1 for my guitar, but when my laptop is connected to the power socket, I get a bad ground loop hum. Trying to find a way to solve that problem without dishing out $70.

Thanks!

I run karaoke a few nights a week and have been for 13 years or so. I found many of the bars had lousy wiring and that removing the grounding prong from my power strip eliminated the hum most of the time. Obviously, this does put your equipment in greater jeopardy from surge, but it's a really cheap fix if you can trust your power and not planning on playing during lightning storms.

had all my systems for over 17 years now plugged directly into the wall.

Never had a problem.

one time I got hit by lightening and I replaced the video card.

could be just really lucky maybe I guess.

This is exactly what I need so I can use my new woot Igloo ice machine, toaster, coffee maker, and smoothie machine on the same outlet.

Watt's this business about joules? Can you have one mounted on your front tooth? A joule is a unit of energy. A watt is a measure of power. One watt is equal to 1 Joule per second.

you guys are awesome, so glad i read this before buying this crap =D

MichaelSF wrote:
That said, I don't keep my battery installed when running off AC power. This is because batteries are good for only about 500 to 700 charge cycles and if you keep it installed 24/7 in the notebook you will "use up" those charge cycles sooner.

Then again, since a notebook battery wears out in about three to four years, even if it's not used, might as well keep it installed in your notebook. LOL.

500 - 700 charge cycles is referring to full discharge/charge cycles. It can actually be charged many times more than that, if the discharges are more shallow. Plus, if the battery is plugged in, while running off of A/C, it's not going to keep charging continuously, once it's fully charged.


Edit: Never mind, OIO beat me to it. I bet he's a member of Candlepowerforums, too.

NightGhost wrote:AVS forum: is it true surge protector not worth it?

Can expensive surge protectors provide better audio and video quality?

Surge Protectors : Really Worth It?

How Surge Protectors Work

Someone hit a utility pole near my house and there was a surge when the pole fell. All our surge protectors fried. Besides that, the only damage was an unprotected old tv in the garage.

MichaelSF wrote:That said, I don't keep my battery installed when running off AC power. This is because batteries are good for only about 500 to 700 charge cycles and if you keep it installed 24/7 in the notebook you will "use up" those charge cycles sooner.

Then again, since a notebook battery wears out in about three to four years, even if it's not used, might as well keep it installed in your notebook. LOL.

Also you can reduce the performance of your laptop significantly when running off the A/C without the battery installed. Not a problem if you're just playing solitaire or doing light web browsing but if you're trying to do some work or play games it can make a difference.

My PowerBook G4 ran at least 25% slower when I pulled the battery out. I guess the battery "tops off" the power being used during heavy load.

There is another dangerous situation often mistaken for ground loops or surges. There is a condition created when your power line ground to the outside wires and/or to the earth (often connected to a copper plumbing pipe)has corroded or otherwise does not connect well.

The dead giveaway to this situation is if lights or TVS get BRIGHTER when some other device like a refrigerator or heater or lights are turned on. Lights getting dimmer when other loads are started is normal, but if lights that are currently on get brighter when other lights are turned on, call your power company! They will come out and inspect and usually fix their ground wire to the pole outside, although they may make you repair your earth ground, which is not a big job.

Sadly, while a surge arrestor will actually prevent your equipment from getting fried for a short time, this problem will eventually wear out your surge protector too.

LastApeMan wrote:had all my systems for over 17 years now plugged directly into the wall.

Never had a problem.

one time I got hit by lightening and I replaced the video card.

could be just really lucky maybe I guess.

Well if your wiring is only 17 years old that could explain it. Try doing that in an old house or office and I doubt you'd be so lucky.

A few years back I had my laptop plugged into a phone line at my grandparents house using dial-up and my modem got fried by a surge. Luckily it didn't hurt anything else in the computer.

If this were waterproof it would make a great addition to my indoor garden.

lailing45 wrote:you guys are awesome, so glad i read this before buying this crap =D

Whoa...you said "crap" and the filters didn't nab you! Kewl...

ob.itemoftheday: Thanks for all the good tech posts, gang. It's definitely helped me with my buying decision.

newjerseymax wrote:In my lifetime and many surge protectors later I never thought of any use... until...thum thum thum.... We had a big "flash" and smoke... After it all settled we realized that we had a surge protector did its job. The protector was obviously fried, but all the equipment still worked. Since then I've been a firm believer.

maybe your other equipment was built a lot better, and protector was junk? Something to think about

If you really want to protect your electronics, get a Panamax.

That 100k equipment warranty is pretty much useless on a surge protector made for small electronics. What they don't tell you on those warranties is you have to have a certified technician look at the damaged equipment and say it was caused by a surge. On small electronics that will cost more than replacing the items in most cases.

would this be good for kitchen appliances like a blender, rice maker, toaster, water boiler, grill, etc?

Here are some things that might help get rid of the hum.

If one device's power plug has both prongs the same size, unplug the power cord from the wall outlet, turn the plug over (so the prongs switch sides) and plug it back in.

If that doesn't work try using a completely different outlet.

Also, compact fluorescent light bulbs (CFL's) may cause a hum in nearby circuits. Try turning off all the CFL's in your house, turn your equipment on see if the hum has gone away.

crazyswedishguy wrote:Out of curiosity, does anyone know if there is any chance this helps eliminate ground loop?

I just got a nice Line 6 POD Studio UX1 for my guitar, but when my laptop is connected to the power socket, I get a bad ground loop hum. Trying to find a way to solve that problem without dishing out $70.

Thanks!

The joule rating is important, but even more important is the clamping voltage -- and I can't find anything for this product that would specify a clamping voltage.

It's always best to buy the lowest clamping voltage possible (330V). I seem to remember having seen it specified as 150V a few times, under another name, but after researching it, it was basically the same as a 330V clamping voltage -- so look for the [more common] 330V or possibly 150V.

Clamping voltage specifies how high the voltage can get before the protection circuit kicks in (while joules refers to how much energy those circuits, once activated, can safely dissipate without your equipment being affected). Obviously you want protection to kick in as soon as possible, so that's why you want this number to be as low as possible.
The fact that Philips doesn't specify it may mean it's not very low -- i.e. this may not be a good buy.

samijubal wrote:If you really want to protect your electronics, get a Panamax.

Agreed, Panamax is a good brand, as is APC -- but that's probably mainly due to good clamping voltage & joule ratings, which products from both companies have.

DaZoneRanger wrote:So, what happens if I plug a big screen TV, heater, or portable A/C into this? Any problem with doing that?

Plug in your Nissan Leaf as well and you will be A-OK!

piehousesix wrote:Three critical things to note:
\
3) This is NOT intended for sensitive items like TVs and Computers. It is great for printers, radios, etc.

That is great. Basically, I can get a printer and a radio for pennies these days....but it won't protect what I really would want it to protect..my TV and Computer.

DaZoneRanger wrote:So, what happens if I plug a big screen TV, heater, or portable A/C into this? Any problem with doing that?

No Problem. I think Darwin's theory would apply here.

The wife and I bought a pair of these (for $10 each at the walsmart) not long ago - I split the two up between my TV and my PS3/DVR system and an aquarium and they work fine, we are in a valley so we don't have to worry much about direct lightning strikes so the joules are fine as far as I can see, plus they make the living room look much nicer than it did, what with all these wires tangled up everywhere.

So, I'm in for 4.

crazyswedishguy wrote:Out of curiosity, does anyone know if there is any chance this helps eliminate ground loop?

No, this should have no effect on ground loops.

First, try plugging your guitar amp and laptop into the same outlet, that should minimize any ground loops.

Second, most laptops are NOT grounded through their AC adapters, so I wonder whether your problem is really a ground loop, or perhaps something else. (You don't tell us the symptoms, you have just diagnosed "ground loop" on your own.)

Third, charge the laptop, unplug it from the wall, and run it on its internal battery. That will completely eliminate any possible ground loop, because the laptop will not be grounded at all. If this does not eliminate whatever problem you're having, then the problem is NOT a ground loop.

Finally, ignore those previous posts about diddling with the power wiring, holding in the "test" button on a GFCI tester, etc. I don't know what that poster is trying to "fix," but those procedures have nothing to do with ground loops. There will always be some potential (voltage) difference between the ground pin and the neutral pin on a three-pin AC receptable. That's normal and is not the cause of ground loops.

A ground loop is caused when two (or more) devices have their chassis connected to ground through two grounded power cords, and then also have their chassis connected together through the shield of the audio wiring. The actual loop could be described like this: ground pin on device #1, through power cord on device #1, to chassis on device #1, through signal (audio) cable to device #2, to chassis on device #2, through power cord of device #2, back to ground pin on device #2... at which point it is connected to ground pin on device #1 through the power plug.

Note that the POWER connections (hot and neutral) don't come into play at all... just the third ground pin. So, if both electronic devices do NOT have a ground pin (and most laptop power supplies do not) then your problem can't be a ground loop... it is something else. If either device (or both) are powered from two-prong wall-warts, your problem is not a ground loop. (As I said before, we don't know what the symptoms are, or why you self-diagnosed the problem as a "ground loop.")

oio wrote:With the two you get from this deal, daisy-chain them and double the protection from 1000 to 2000 J :D

*I don't know if chaining them increases protection linearly. Props to the lad who figures out how to stack them elegantly.

No, chaining them probably won't double the Joules rating. That's because the CMOVs (the devices that absorb the spikes) are not perfectly matched in terms of their breakdown voltage (just because of normal production variations). The CMOV with the lower voltage will fire first and if the surge is really big, the CMOV will fry. Then the second CMOV will fire, and if the surge is really big, the second CMOV will fry.

Then your electronics will fry.

On the other hand, how does the original poster know that he needs a 2000 Joule rating to protect his electronics?

sdc100 wrote:It'll take a huge spike to fry those because the tolerance is huge. Consumer Reports did a test and found that it took a spike that is not normally seen in any home or office. Realistically, there is no reason to surge protect an unregulated power supply.

Totally disagree - we just had our lights flicker off for short enough time to only reset ONE clock in our entire house - but the surge was enough to fry our DVR. It can happen.

DaZoneRanger wrote:So, what happens if I plug a big screen TV, heater, or portable A/C into this? Any problem with doing that?

Electrical Rating: 120V/15A/1800W
as long as you don't go over the Electrical Rating you will be fine, Most heater use 1250 - 1500w so you won't have much wattage left to hook up more stuff.

piehousesix wrote:Three critical things to note:
1) You must use a 3-prong outlet for this.
2) Because of the screw, it will not fit on outlets that have a reset button or outlets that do not have a center screw.
3) This is NOT intended for sensitive items like TVs and Computers. It is great for printers, radios, etc.

If I cannot use it on TV's or my computers then what the heck are they good for? Do I surge protect my toaster?

garrettw87 wrote:Agreed, Panamax is a good brand, as is APC -- but that's probably mainly due to good clamping voltage & joule ratings, which products from both companies have.

The other great thing about APC products is that they are warrantied for life. If the strip ever takes a bullet due to a surge they will replace it for free. They may cost a little more, but they could literally be the last surge protectors you will ever buy.

MichaelSF wrote:That's an excellent point, but you need to tell the newbs what "UPS" means.

It's not the shipper folks, it means "uninterrupted power supply." Basically a UPS is a battery that should the power spike or "go out," for even a second, the computer switches to using the battery.

You can buy a UPS for your desktop, the good ones being the size of a car battery or bigger.

What he is referring to is that your notebook, if the battery is connected, it functions the same as a desktop UPS, even if the notebook is plugged into an AC outlet.

That said, I don't keep my battery installed when running off AC power. This is because batteries are good for only about 500 to 700 charge cycles and if you keep it installed 24/7 in the notebook you will "use up" those charge cycles sooner.

Then again, since a notebook battery wears out in about three to four years, even if it's not used, might as well keep it installed in your notebook. LOL.

Good point Michael. Laptop batteries are only good for so many cycles. We had a slew of laptops where the batteries were dropping like flies. They actually had a battery calibration tool in the bios that worked really well and saved a lot of money by not having to buy new batteries. What happened to that? Anyone know?

sdc100 wrote:Guys, here's something a lot of people don't realize. Although is always smart to surge protect computers, there's no need to protect laptops if it has a battery. That's because the battery is like a UPS, providing a buffer between your electrical supply and your laptop. The electricity reaching the laptop's circuitry is therefore clean of spike and dips.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Batteries for laptops can cost a fortune. If you are relying on the battery to be a surge protector, what's protecting the battery if you don't use a surge protector? I am not sure batteries have any surge protecting capabilities but I am not an expert in batteries, so I am going to go with you on that one.

crazyswedishguy wrote:Out of curiosity, does anyone know if there is any chance this helps eliminate ground loop?

I just got a nice Line 6 POD Studio UX1 for my guitar, but when my laptop is connected to the power socket, I get a bad ground loop hum. Trying to find a way to solve that problem without dishing out $70.

Thanks!

Nah. Grounds are all still connected together it is just that with this device, the circuit legs are connected to the ground leg by a component that conducts when there is a spike.

In your case, try using an outlet (with an extension cord if necessary) that is fed from a different circuit breaker--that will at least eliminate the noise from current flow back to the panel.