I have had this set up since it was released by Apple. I already had a 22 inch monitor and now I have a dual monitor set up using the Thunderbolt display port. I was able to get a $150 discount which comes to the same as the Woot deal. I also added a Magic Touch Pad and an external drive. Not a bad price at $1049 but not much of a discount for Woot! Still a great deal though.

daiuy wrote:Every two to three years I get so frustrated with my PC that I replace it, hoping the newest Win OS will be better. I've gone through four Dells now, because they've been the highest rated until recently, and because when I worked at Radio Shack, selling IBMs etc. out front, the company was using Dells in the back. I've heard both sides of the Apple argument for decades.
I'm again ready to toss my PC out the window, and have been wondering if I should try going over to the Dark Side. Reading these eleven pages has not helped, nor has reading Mac user forums.
But I have just now ordered this Woot. Can't be worse; indications are it will be better.
I'll let you know in 2 - 3 years...

I switched from Windows in March of 2011 with this exact model and I absolutely love it.

A friend has one of these that she's running as a dual boot Win 7 and Debian. She absolutely loves it.

YFZblu wrote:Consider also that the network Mac PCs you're referring to are probably attached to some really expensive networking equipment, which is attached to dedicated WAN links and loads of bandwidth (depending on your employer). The increase in performance and reliability you're referring to could very well be attributed to a collection of devices.

Has nothing to do with the network. We also have windows and ubuntu machines on the same network.

kidasia wrote:I switched from Windows in March of 2011 with this exact model and I absolutely love it.

Let me guess, you still had to install bootcamp with Windows 7? If you did, that was a complete waste of a purchase...

I dont think windows was the problem anyways, i think it was his inferior choice of PCs with crap hardware. I built my own PC for less than the price of this complete desktop
Mobo: Asus M798TD-EVO AM3 SLI $149.99
RAM: 8GB GIEL ValuRAM @ 1066 $16.00
CPU: AMD Phenom2 945C3 Rev $49.99
CPU cooler: Zalmann CNPS 9700 $16.00
Graphics cards: 2x Nvidia GTX 460 1GB, found two of them used for $100 each
PSU: BFGtech EX series 1000w modular $50 on clearance
Case: Antec 300 Illusion $15
Screen: Acer 21.5in TN 1920x1080 DVI/HDMI monitor(2MS GtG) $100
Keyboard: Razer Lycosa $20
Mouse: Logitech MX518 $20
Windows 7 ultimate: free from school
MS office pro plus: $10 from work VLK agreement

Add in the fact that I had the HDDs and cables laying around, so they did not need to be purchased, but that would have only added about another $50 really for 2 HDDs and cables, and my entire build was less than $700 with the screen, and it clearly stomps on this iMac piece of junk, for much less(and I built this desktop in January, no less, i bet I could do it for even cheaper now). Apple hardware markup at its best(the i5 that is in the iMac retails for about $150, apple charges you about $300, if thats any idea).

A little tip: Build your own computer. You get to pick the parts, the price, the brands and the quality, so then only you can be blamed for a crappy experience, and you know what is in it will last. Any major brand name like Dell, HP, ect, are junk from the start. they find the cheapest parts they can(usually Foxconn, which apple uses as its supplier and builder), pair them with a crap CPU, and most of the time no GPU, and then no matter what you do, it will be a crap experience. Also, this has a Mobile based graphics chip, not a desktop chip, so if you were expecting to do anything that is graphically heavy on this machine, dont bother with it. Even a single of my discreet GTX 460s walks all over the crap integrated mobile GPU that is in this. I dont usually write things like this, but I would like to discourage a bad purchase. If you plan on browsing facebook and youtube, there are cheaper options to do it on, and if you are planning to do actual work, again, there are better suited options than this out there.

matt1976 wrote:A friend has one of these that she's running as a dual boot Win 7 and Debian. She absolutely loves it.

That is completely insane. She overpaid for inferior hardware, and then instead of using the OS she graciously paid for, she installs windows and a GNU variant on it. All of my WHY? Do people realize that there is much better hardware for less, especially to run windows on.

chubbysumo wrote:

A little tip: Build your own computer. .....

Not everybody can be pro or smart like you, chubbysumo. Some people would rather overpay by 200%. And spend $500 for an ipad that can do less than a $200 netbook.

buffaloed wrote:Has nothing to do with the network. We also have windows and ubuntu machines on the same network.

So what you're saying is that OS X is just a superior operating system? Obviously an i5 isn't exclusive to Apple. Why not just spend $29 and install Lion on a computer 1/3 the price?

chubbysumo wrote:That is completely insane. She overpaid for inferior hardware, and then instead of using the OS she graciously paid for, she installs windows and a GNU variant on it. All of my WHY? Do people realize that there is much better hardware for less, especially to run windows on.

I'm not sure why she set it up that way, I think it was a second hand machine. It's an ongoing joke that she has too.

Anyone who's looking from switching from PC to Mac, this is a good deal to take the opportunity.

I've been an IT consultant for 10 years now. Building and repairing PC's and providing tech support in offices and for friends and family, and I know my way around a PC.

But I was given an iMac, so I decided to use it, and now I prefer Macs to use for my desktop of choice. And for casual, non technical users, the benefits are even greater.

My iMac has frozen or crashed zero times in the 3 years i've had it. Its deadly quiet (my gaming tower sounded like a learjet taking off). I can hold my breath in the time it takes to boot up and shut down.
No having to buy Norton subscriptions every year. No blue screens of death, driver issues, big constant OS updates and security patches to always get. No having to reinstall the OS to get the system running like it used to. No restarting in safe mode to resolve issues. Much less time spent maintaining and resolving issues, and more time just doing what you want to do.

I have mine setup to dual boot to Windows 7 if I want to play PC only games.

Macs are worth the extra dough for these reasons.

Most people who despise Apple have never even owned an Apple computer. They just hate Apple because they're more expensive, or because of the associations with hipsters, and cultish fans, or because of their emphasis on style, not because they found that using PC's was a more more pleasant and smooth experience.

Try it. And if you find you just hate it, you can resell it for close to what you paid for it, since apple devices have great resale value.

Very surprised it's not sold out except for the fact it's Christmas Eve. Maybe because many people finished their shopping and don't want to spend $1055 more or just don't have it.

Its a good deal for a Mac. I would venture buying it for a 2nd computer for myself and a 1st Mac ever but I don't spend much on "me". I tend to spend on everyone else but me. The $349 tablet was my cap for myself.

Those that ordered this Mac set up, enjoy it!

iluvcheesecake: +1

iluvcheesecake wrote:Anyone who's looking from switching from PC to Mac, this is a good deal to take the opportunity.

I've been an IT consultant for 10 years now. Building and repairing PC's and providing tech support in offices and for friends and family, and I know my way around a PC.

But I was given an iMac, so I decided to use it, and now I prefer Macs to use for my desktop of choice. And for casual, non technical users, the benefits are even greater.

My iMac has frozen or crashed zero times in the 3 years i've had it. Its deadly quiet (my gaming tower sounded like a learjet taking off). I can hold my breath in the time it takes to boot up and shut down.
No having to buy Norton subscriptions every year. No blue screens of death, driver issues, big constant OS updates and security patches to always get. No having to reinstall the OS to get the system running like it used to. No restarting in safe mode to resolve issues. Much less time spent maintaining and resolving issues, and more time just doing what you want to do.

I have mine setup to dual boot to Windows 7 if I want to play PC only games.

Macs are worth the extra dough for these reasons.

Most people who despise Apple have never even owned an Apple computer. They just hate Apple because they're more expensive, or because of the associations with hipsters, and cultish fans, or because of their emphasis on style, not because they found that using PC's was a more more pleasant and smooth experience.

Try it. And if you find you just hate it, you can resell it for close to what you paid for it, since apple devices have great resale value.

I'm sorry, but if you've been having those issues with Windows, I would love to see the results of your work as "IT consultant."
I've been building machines for 9 years now; network administration with Windows Servers, Cisco switches/routers, Windows/Mac clients and mobile access for Android, Windows, Apple, and Blackberry phones for over 3 years.
For one thing, I haven't had a virus on either of my 4 personal Windows 7 machines since... well, ever. 2 of them don't even sport an A/V. The only time I have stability issues with my gaming rig is when I play with overclocking (Apple users wouldn't know about overclocking). I never see issues with Windows Servers or clients that I personally setup for my clients. I do see issues with 3rd party crapware and bloatware that causes all sorts of problems when said users bring in their personal computers. Another common problem - printer and scanner compatibility with Apple machines. Many issues with Mac OS typically warrant a reinstall (luckily application recovery is nothing like reinstall under Windows). Any Windows machine I oversee will rarely see a reinstall more than once every 4 years.

Question your abilities before you question the platform.

[quote postid="4773759" user="dgingerich"]I run my own computer repair business, and yes, Macs are less likely to get infected, but it's mostly because they aren't creating malware for Macs. It doesn't pay to put out something that 10% of the population has. However, this year, there have been several malware programs pushed out for Macs.

I use free anti-virus software on my PC's, and I haven't had an infection in more than 10 years. It's more about being smart and installing updates for things like Adobe Flash and Java when they ask you to."

NONSENSE.

You may own a business, but that is a silly misconception. If you use MacOS, you can forget viruses, and it has nothing to do with popularity. If you run Windows, you will absolutely have to have antivirus crap updated and mess with it forever.

I have had Macs since 1984. I have never spent a dollar or a minute on antivirus drivel.

The only "virus" that MacOS has suffered is an application that masquerades as antivirus utility. Uniformed Mac users see the dire warning that they may have a virus, and they enter their password to install the malware app on their own machine. That's not a virus by my definition.

If you use a Mac and avoid doing an install of such an application, you are completely safe.

YFZblu wrote:So what you're saying is that OS X is just a superior operating system? Obviously an i5 isn't exclusive to Apple. Why not just spend $29 and install Lion on a computer 1/3 the price?

It's a combination of OS and hardware. Mac hardware is selected and configured specifically for OS X. Microsoft doesn't control the hardware selection and manufacturing process used by the likes of Dell, Gateway, HP. etc.. We'll never how good windows can be because Microsoft doesn't manufacture computers.

Jethro70 wrote:So am I going to have to add the Apple logo to my COEXIST bumper sticker? ;)

You mean this one? http://shirt.woot.com/friends.aspx?k=16785

chubbysumo wrote:Let me guess, you still had to install bootcamp with Windows 7? If you did, that was a complete waste of a purchase...
...

A little tip: Build your own computer.

Custom machines don't come with the shine and magic of Apple products though

iluvcheesecake wrote:Anyone who's looking from switching from PC to Mac, this is a good deal to take the opportunity.

I've been an IT consultant for 10 years now. Building and repairing PC's and providing tech support in offices and for friends and family, and I know my way around a PC.

But I was given an iMac, so I decided to use it, and now I prefer Macs to use for my desktop of choice. And for casual, non technical users, the benefits are even greater.

My iMac has frozen or crashed zero times in the 3 years i've had it. Its deadly quiet (my gaming tower sounded like a learjet taking off). I can hold my breath in the time it takes to boot up and shut down.
No having to buy Norton subscriptions every year. No blue screens of death, driver issues, big constant OS updates and security patches to always get. No having to reinstall the OS to get the system running like it used to. No restarting in safe mode to resolve issues. Much less time spent maintaining and resolving issues, and more time just doing what you want to do.

I have mine setup to dual boot to Windows 7 if I want to play PC only games.

Macs are worth the extra dough for these reasons.

Most people who despise Apple have never even owned an Apple computer. They just hate Apple because they're more expensive, or because of the associations with hipsters, and cultish fans, or because of their emphasis on style, not because they found that using PC's was a more more pleasant and smooth experience.

Try it. And if you find you just hate it, you can resell it for close to what you paid for it, since apple devices have great resale value.

Even if one were to concede that OS X is a superior operating system, this still leaves the issue of cost. Once again, Lion can be installed on vastly superior hardware without selling your first born to afford it.

In my experience, the vast majority of Windows 7 issues are user-inflicted, you should know this. Also, why compare a gaming tower with an iMac? The iMac is engineered with small form factor in mind; conversely, the heatsink on my gaming tower is a V8 the size of a softball...of course it will be louder.

verdauga wrote:You mean this one? http://shirt.woot.com/friends.aspx?k=16785

Kind of, except I was thinking it would go with the other religions of the world, not mere mortal operating systems.

stascom wrote:I'm sorry, but if you've been having those issues with Windows, I would love to see the results of your work as "IT consultant."
I've been building machines for 9 years now; network administration with Windows Servers, Cisco switches/routers, Windows/Mac clients and mobile access for Android, Windows, Apple, and Blackberry phones for over 3 years.
For one thing, I haven't had a virus on either of my 4 personal Windows 7 machines since... well, ever. 2 of them don't even sport an A/V. The only time I have stability issues with my gaming rig is when I play with overclocking (Apple users wouldn't know about overclocking). I never see issues with Windows Servers or clients that I personally setup for my clients. I do see issues with 3rd party crapware and bloatware that causes all sorts of problems when said users bring in their personal computers. Another common problem - printer and scanner compatibility with Apple machines. Many issues with Mac OS typically warrant a reinstall (luckily application recovery is nothing like reinstall under Windows). Any Windows machine I oversee will rarely see a reinstall more than once every 4 years.

Question your abilities before you question the platform.

All the professional networks and Windows machines I have used have antivirus crap on them, and your results are the exception to what I have seen.

On the other hand, My dozen or so Macs have never had a "professional" touch them, and have never needed it, either.

The fragility of the Windows environment provides "experts" and "administrators" like yourself with great job security, and the mortals who don't have your "ability" are simply wrong, eh?

Simple is better.

If you prefer to buy and own a safe and secure machine that won't suffer attack and will work right out of the box, buy a Mac.

kidasia wrote:I have had this set up since it was released by Apple. I already had a 22 inch monitor and now I have a dual monitor set up using the Thunderbolt display port. I was able to get a $150 discount which comes to the same as the Woot deal. I also added a Magic Touch Pad and an external drive. Not a bad price at $1049 but not much of a discount for Woot! Still a great deal though.

Considering it's Apple and not a refurb, I can't imagine Apple allowing Woot to sell it any lower than that. Shipping is super low and most states there is no tax. If you buy from Apple or an Apple dealer, no matter where you live you're going to pay close to $100 in shipping and full tax. If you pick it up, that's the only way to eliminate shipping.

It's rare to get Apple discounts. My daughter did get a large discount (25 percent) through a very large corporation but if they got caught, given she didn't work for the corp., they might have lost the right to purchase Apple products at a discount.

It's almost impossible to get a discount on especially brand new, Apple/Mac products unless you know someone in Apple or that purchases at a discount from them. I'm fairly sure Apple told Woot what the lowest selling price was bottom line. I would imagine Woot might be making about 10 percent or less on each system.

chuckf1 wrote:The advantage of buying the iMac here is no sales tax, unlike the online Apple store which charges sales tax in states where they have brick and mortar stores.

Not an advantage for me since Woot was assimilated by Amazon. Tax rate is about 9% in WA where I live. I have passed up so very many big ticket deals, as tacking on nearly 10% to the price tends to kill it pretty effectively. It's sad really.

chubbysumo wrote:Let me guess, you still had to install bootcamp with Windows 7? If you did, that was a complete waste of a purchase...

I dont think windows was the problem anyways, i think it was his inferior choice of PCs with crap hardware. I built my own PC for less than the price of this complete desktop

(snip)

Windows 7 ultimate: free from school
MS office pro plus: $10 from work VLK agreement

(snip)

Aw, c'mon, that's not even close to a fair comparison. How much do these two software products cost on the open market? Something like $650?

3eyore wrote:(John_Cleese ON)
And now for something completely different...
(John_Cleese OFF)

It's 2:30 p.m., and North Dakota is in the sales lead. Wonder why that is...

Woot!, I'll give ya a shiny new dime for all of your sales / demographic data! OH... WAIT... I'll bet that that was one of the reasons why Amazon bought ya!

7:30 p.m. and North Dakota is still WAY out in front. What does that mean?

stascom wrote:I'm sorry, but if you've been having those issues with Windows, I would love to see the results of your work as "IT consultant."
I've been building machines for 9 years now; network administration with Windows Servers, Cisco switches/routers, Windows/Mac clients and mobile access for Android, Windows, Apple, and Blackberry phones for over 3 years.
For one thing, I haven't had a virus on either of my 4 personal Windows 7 machines since... well, ever. 2 of them don't even sport an A/V. The only time I have stability issues with my gaming rig is when I play with overclocking (Apple users wouldn't know about overclocking). I never see issues with Windows Servers or clients that I personally setup for my clients. I do see issues with 3rd party crapware and bloatware that causes all sorts of problems when said users bring in their personal computers. Another common problem - printer and scanner compatibility with Apple machines. Many issues with Mac OS typically warrant a reinstall (luckily application recovery is nothing like reinstall under Windows). Any Windows machine I oversee will rarely see a reinstall more than once every 4 years.

Question your abilities before you question the platform.

I'm not out to prove a point. I'm recounting my own personal experience with desktops. Why you would mention servers I have no idea, thats completely unrelated.

My experience is that macs are more reliable (likely due to the operating system being Unix based, and because the OS is more tightly integrated with the hardware. And Windows is less reliable, because of the fact that the OS has to run on a near infinite combination of hardware configurations, thus leaving more security holes, and being more vulnerable to viruses and spyware which compromise the stability and performance of the system.

Honestly, can you tell me with a straight face that PC's are more intuitive and reliable than macs? Really?

I've also found that Apples e-mail and phone tech support, which is based in america, as well as the genius bar for in person tech support, is better than most PC manufacturers support like Dell and HP who outsourced their call centers to India, and don't have 1st party in person support, instead of relying on 3rd party retail stores to handle that.

The real arguement is, are macs worth the extra money? And my opinion, which nobody has to agree with, is yes, they are. Lets also remember that not everybody are computer geeks like you and me. They appreciate using desktops that are more intuitive and more reliable.

I worked with a company called Teletech from 2000-2003. And was the IT manager for a long term healthcare facility called Kindred Healthcare from 2003-2006, and work as a technician in the global ops department of Allergan from 2006 to present.

Re Mac mouse and right clicking:

Sorry if this is a repeat of an earlier post. No, you can't right click a single-button Mac mouse, but you can access the hidden menu by clicking and holding the single button down until the hidden menu pops up. Yes, it takes a little longer to click and hold than to right click. Mac mice used with iMacs have had this feature since at least 1999.

Jerrycup wrote:All the professional networks and Windows machines I have used have antivirus crap on them, and your results are the exception to what I have seen.

On the other hand, My dozen or so Macs have never had a "professional" touch them, and have never needed it, either.

The fragility of the Windows environment provides "experts" and "administrators" like yourself with great job security, and the mortals who don't have your "ability" are simply wrong, eh?

Simple is better.

If you prefer to buy and own a safe and secure machine that won't suffer attack and will work right out of the box, buy a Mac.

The best part about posts like this is that probably half of the servers you download information from are Windows machines that feature high availability.

But it's all crap...

w00terfu1 wrote:Re Mac mouse and right clicking:

Sorry if this is a repeat of an earlier post. No, you can't right click a single-button Mac mouse, but you can access the hidden menu by clicking and holding the single button down until the hidden menu pops up. Yes, it takes a little longer to click and hold than to right click. Mac mice used with iMacs have had this feature since at least 1999.

Or you can just go purchase a 2-button mouse.

IPS Monitor
Monitor is calibrated at the factory.
Monitor brightness auto-adjusts to ambient light level.
Built-in high-end webcam.
WiFi is triple antenna 450mbs.
Bluetooth
Wireless KB & mouse.
Intel Z68 chipset motherboard.
Thunderbolt I/O
Firewire 800
iLife '11 Software
Apple Support is consistently top rated.

These things may or may not matter to you, but they add up to a high-end product with a high-end price.

If the top rated HP all-on-ones had the same features they'd cost just as much.

(You'll have to pry my 27" iMac from my cold dead fingers.)

YFZblu wrote:Or you can just go purchase a 2-button mouse.

As has been said repeatedly, the included mouse _does_ right-clicks, gestures, etc.

Why Apple _still_ doesn't enable right-clicks by default is beyond me, but it's right there in System Preferences->Mouse.

Yes, this system will likely be upgraded in a few months. However, the upgrade, unlike last spring's one to i5/i7/Thunderbolt, is unlikely to be significant. This is a good deal.

buffaloed wrote:It's a combination of OS and hardware. Mac hardware is selected and configured specifically for OS X. Microsoft doesn't control the hardware selection and manufacturing process used by the likes of Dell, Gateway, HP. etc.. We'll never how good windows can be because Microsoft doesn't manufacture computers.

I have owned an iMac and I can tell you first hand my solid state boot drive is faster and runs more smoothly than any other computer I have ever owned.

Windows 7 has never presented me with a BSOD, crashed, or gotten a virus. How people still download viruses with User Account Control slapping them on the wrists, I'll never know. Too much clicking around on Facebook I suppose, but who's fault is that?

omgwin wrote:Not everybody can be pro or smart like you, chubbysumo. Some people would rather overpay by 200%. And spend $500 for an ipad that can do less than a $200 netbook.

No really, building a computer isnt' too much more difficult than building with Legos.

calebmitchell wrote:Exactly what makes the mouse "magic?" At that price, the thing better do my dishes and laundry!

It's bluetooth wireless and it's also a track pad. (Though I've turned most of the track pad related features off on mine.)

YFZblu wrote:Even if one were to concede that OS X is a superior operating system, this still leaves the issue of cost. Once again, Lion can be installed on vastly superior hardware without selling your first born to afford it.

In my experience, the vast majority of Windows 7 issues are user-inflicted, you should know this. Also, why compare a gaming tower with an iMac? The iMac is engineered with small form factor in mind; conversely, the heatsink on my gaming tower is a V8 the size of a softball...of course it will be louder.

The operating system is only a single part of the equation.

I don't see anything in your post thats convincing me that a windows PC is more reliable, intuitive, and a better experience than using a mac.

The cost, value, and if a mac is worth the money is strictly opinion. But give me some evidence, that the PC experience is better.

There could be a PC user who's had a relatively pain free experience, and a mac user who's had a handful of problems with their system. But the offices i've worked for that have had both PC and mac desktops in use, I've found that over 90% of my time doing troubleshooting and repair work, were for the PC systems.

monix wrote:Or you know, you could get a PC with the same specs for a fraction of the price...

Um, no you can't, as you can't buy a PC with Thunderbolt I/O yet. (See my later post for a detailed list on why iMacs cost what they do.)

editorkid wrote:All Macs can run Windows, so it's like you're getting two computers for the price of one here. Set up Boot Camp for a dual-booting computer or use any of the virtual OS programs like Parallels to have the two side-by-side.

Exactly. That way you get to overpay for the (ugly) PC hardware and an OS that doesn't run most of your software, AND THEN you get to buy Windows7 too. Perfect for those of us with too much money and nothing to spend it on.

omgwin wrote:And spend $500 for an ipad that can do less than a $200 netbook.

That argument could almost be valid if netbooks had touch screens, access to the app store, and had 10 hour battery life.

tablets are for media
netbooks/laptops are for doing work.

apples and oranges.

maybe you could explain why netbook sales have bombed in the past 2 years?

iluvcheesecake wrote:The operating system is only a single part of the equation.

I don't see anything in your post thats convincing me that a windows PC is more reliable, intuitive, and a better experience than using a mac.

The cost, value, and if a mac is worth the money is strictly opinion. But give me some evidence, that the PC experience is better.

There could be a PC user who's had a relatively pain free experience, and a mac user who's had a handful of problems with their system. But the offices i've worked for that have had both PC and mac desktops in use, I've found that over 90% of my time doing troubleshooting and repair work, were for the PC systems.

I'm still scratching my head at the thought of a self-credentializing PC technician whining about the volume of an iMac running compared to the volume of a running gaming PC. Seriously?

All I am willing to do is tell you why the Windows experience is better for me: When I construct a computer that costs less money than an iMac and runs faster and performs better, I'm not kicking myself in the head. It's as simple as that.

Intuitive? I'm sorry, but my computer does not do what it thinks I want it to do. My computer does what it is told to do.

YFZblu wrote:The best part about posts like this is that probably half of the servers you download information from are Windows machines that feature high availability.

But it's all crap...

Most web servers run Unix or Linux. Almost no heavy duty enterprise level servers run Windows Servers operating systems as they are widely considered to be the most unstable and insecure.

Gotta love when people talk out of their ass to support their opinions.

YFZblu wrote:I'm still scratching my head at the thought of a self-credentializing PC technician whining about the volume of an iMac running compared to the volume of a running gaming PC. Seriously?.

I like how you pick out one reason I gave, and completely dismiss the half dozen other reasons I gave.

How about responding to all the points I made.

Is a PC cheaper? Yes. Is a PC a better value? If you build your own system and get a good deal on the parts, sure.

Is a PC more reliable, intuitive, easier to use, and better designed?
No.