bucsfanp7


quality posts: 0 Private Messages bucsfanp7
deecee73 wrote:I rarely make a comment but do read these b/c people have such a great sense of humor around here. However I have to respond to the quote of the "doctor" who disparages Eastern medicine:

Another clown of a western doctor to frown upon Chinese medicine. Acupuncture/acupressure works and that is proven. It has even been used in complement with Western medicine (e.g. to kill pain for open heart surgery - performed with no other anesthesia).

I spent years in pain, getting massages, taking muscle relaxants and suffering after getting hit at a stop light by a sleepy driver who ran a red light. About 8 years later I traveled to see a master acupuncturist [ an MD / PhD. ] from China who used a plug-in unit of these and needles. Within three visits she had fixed me 99%. That was maybe six or seven years ago and I have only been back maybe once or twice for back pain since then. In that time I have sent many friends and co-workers to see this woman and she has fixed problems that Western doctors insisted needed painful surgery (for knees, foot operations, etc.) when all they needed was for the body to heal itself.

Clowns like the doctor that wrote of the "unproven theory" need to be taken out back and...

The person who recommended to me the acupuncturist in question (and I have seen a couple different ones, but there is only one master acupuncturist that I have met) was mangled in a motor vehicle accident and was to have his leg amputated by Western doctors. Ultimately those Western doctors left the leg attached but the man dragged around his leg like a tree stump for years. He developed horrible back pain that his chiropractor and drugs could not address. Within one visit the master acupuncturist had unfrozen the man's ankle and his swollen foot had shrunk back to a normal size (he had to wear different-sized shoes for years).

Just as with Western medicine there are competent and incompetent doctors, the same goes with Eastern medicine. You have to do your homework. Chiropractors have had reported deaths and I know people who have been injured by chiropractors. I know people (including family) who were killed and maimed by Western doctors. I don't know anyone injured or killed by an acupuncturist, but I do know many who were healed/relieved or cured by acupuncturists. At worst, they found the needles hurt or did nothing but give fleeting relief.


Ironically, a Western doctor (very good) at a doc-in-the-box clinic suggested I get one of these types of units about 14 years ago when I was hit by that driver. My insurance didn't want to pay the $750 (understandably) so I returned the unit. At this price I can finally afford one for myself. : D

----------------

I just went back and read that and it sounds nutty and like an infomercial. Oh well, it's the best I can do in the middle of the night. Take it with a grain of salt. Then go feel healthy and happy.



I always question "western medicine"--which has been around only a few hundred years-- proponents when they deride "eastern medicine" because it has been around for literally thousands of years.

While true that there are charlatans and cons pushing homeopathic remedies, genuine eastern practitioners have been known to greatly relieve pain, discomfort and illnesses that western doctors only want to give you a pill for, which only treats the symptoms, not the problem.

I'll take eastern over western ANY time. Thank goodness that insurance companies are FINALLY recognizing the same facts..albeit v-e-r-y slowly.

hbernstein


quality posts: 0 Private Messages hbernstein

In for two. I've been using this when needed for back issues, and I bought one for my mother not too long ago. I think it really helps.

It does take some getting used to. I've heard that even on the lowest setting some people think it's too strong, but that's never been a problem for me.

nbolourian


quality posts: 0 Private Messages nbolourian

Does anyone know whether or not this is safe to use for Bells Palsy?

drjdoesnotplaybasketball


quality posts: 0 Private Messages drjdoesnotplaybasketball
mjaz62 wrote:Does anyone know if this will work on charley-horse leg cramps? Thanks in advance!



No probably make it worse, but if you wiggle the toes on the other foot the cramp will go away.

sdc100


quality posts: 502 Private Messages sdc100
jimmygrec wrote:
Rather than objectively studying the comparative merits of setting 5 on 15 different devices. Perhaps some Wooting doctors should accept the subjectivity of pain and try to figure out how a $30 device has helped so many people live with less pain. Then make the best consumer grade units available to everyone who can safely use them.



No one is denying the "subjectivity of pain" or the economics of using these. Indeed, its subjectivity is well-recognized and exploited to alleviate pain. It should even be known by Psych 101 students, i.e. Weber-Fechner law fails for pain perception. What I've disputed, and the FDA has disputed, are the medical claims made by these companies. Read my 2nd post for why their claims, as published on Amazon, are very suspect. If these work, the effect probably comes from distracting the patient from feeling pain, possibly acting as a mild counter-irritatant. Great, but don't claim that this is a TENS or EMS unit.

worldtraveler85


quality posts: 0 Private Messages worldtraveler85

Egads, if the strength isn't strong enough, try using a more conductive gel under the pads or better yet, more accurate placement along the nerve nodes.

sdc100


quality posts: 502 Private Messages sdc100
nbolourian wrote:Does anyone know whether or not this is safe to use for Bells Palsy?



No, the company specifically says not to use this on the face. Such devices should not be used near the brain, throat or carotid artery. The stray electrical impulses can cause a seizure, and the muscular contractions can cause choking or an ischemic stroke (by closing off the artery, thus preventing blood from reaching the brain).

paulcomino


quality posts: 0 Private Messages paulcomino

Buy 3 to get the cheap shipping, get the Woot AA batteries and hook them all up and it should be just as good as the physical therapist.

sdc100


quality posts: 502 Private Messages sdc100
worldtraveler85 wrote:Egads, if the strength isn't strong enough, try using a more conductive gel under the pads or better yet, more accurate placement along the nerve nodes.



Simple water on the pads often help. In fact, I apply water to my pads regularly to keep them from drying out. Also make sure your skin is clean before applying.

f you don't feel pain at the highest settings, either your unit is broken or you may have neuropathy (i.e. from diabetes). You should get checked out by a physician. Many diabetics are undiagnosed until they become symptomatic and neuropathy may be the first presenting symptom.

sdc100


quality posts: 502 Private Messages sdc100
hbernstein wrote:In for two. I've been using this when needed for back issues, and I bought one for my mother not too long ago. I think it really helps.

It does take some getting used to. I've heard that even on the lowest setting some people think it's too strong, but that's never been a problem for me.



Make sure you get checked out for underlying causes before trying to suppress the pain. back pain can result from tumors, nerve damage, kidney infections or even heart disease. Recent studies show that women often have different presenting symptoms than men. For example, many women do not feel the radiating pain into the arms that many men feel. Some women have pains in the shoulder and back, and even insomnia, the days and weeks preceding a heart attack.

JKoltner


quality posts: 0 Private Messages JKoltner
sdc100 wrote:Real medical devices would publish their specs. For example, even simple thermometers and scales will tell you their accuracy within a percentage. As far as I can tell, no specs are available to the user in terms of what frequencies and amplitudes are used, and the tolerances used to establish accuracy.



The Woot page says it's 60Hz.

As for the amplitude... unless you have multiple units and hence want to be able to set them all the same, why does it matter? This unit is clearly a "turn up the setting until you're comfortable" sort of deal, so I don't see any reason it needs to be calibrated to any particular standard... or even precisely calibrated to an arbitrary one.

(I.e... if I take home two different brands of TVs, I don't care if their volumes are completely different at the "25" settings... and even with two identical make & model TVs, if "25" on one is 10% different from the other, so what?)

I guess I figure that as long as a product is reasonably safe, there's nothing wrong with it not being certified/calibrated/whatever for some applications -- just tell the user to play around with the settings until they get what they like, and call it good.

Furthermore, the basis of its claims (as evidenced by the Amazon description) has nothing to do with how TENS is applied. For example, what is WAIST vs SOLE? I don't know of any scientific basis for their programs.



See above. Just try'em out and see if you like'em or not -- they might as well have called them "duck," "tiger," and "ostrich." :-)

As for the FDA statement, you've mischaracterized it. Those guidelines are published for IRBs and trained medical professionals. IN other words, the listed equipment is low risk when USED BY TRAINED PROFESSIONALS. It does not apply to casual home users.



Sure, that's why I suggested people see a doctor or similar first: I have to believe that the "professional training" needed to properly use a TENS device can be provided in one office visit. If that's not possible, these days there's enough information on the Internet that a diligent researcher can likely become sufficiently educated in their use to effectively apply them.

(In general I think the term "professional" is largely meaningless today. I usually take it to be the original dictionary definition -- simply someone who's being paid to provide goods or services; while that implies that they're likely to be highly skilled, there's absolutely zero guarantee of that (and most "professionals" go out of their way to make sure they're not liable if it turns out they *aren't* proficient).

I don't mean the above to apply that most doctors aren't good -- certainly most are -- just that the difference between "trained medical professional" and "casual home user" isn't nearly as big as some might like you to believe.


kuma99


quality posts: 9 Private Messages kuma99

Are these new?... or refurbished?

beezdotcom


quality posts: 4 Private Messages beezdotcom
JKoltner wrote:Sure, that's why I suggested people see a doctor or similar first: I have to believe that the "professional training" needed to properly use a TENS device can be provided in one office visit. If that's not possible, these days there's enough information on the Internet that a diligent researcher can likely become sufficiently educated in their use to effectively apply them.

(In general I think the term "professional" is largely meaningless today. I usually take it to be the original dictionary definition -- simply someone who's being paid to provide goods or services; while that implies that they're likely to be highly skilled, there's absolutely zero guarantee of that (and most "professionals" go out of their way to make sure they're not liable if it turns out they *aren't* proficient).

I don't mean the above to apply that most doctors aren't good -- certainly most are -- just that the difference between "trained medical professional" and "casual home user" isn't nearly as big as some might like you to believe.



Not to diminish the skills of people who have lots of useful TENS training - but I have been to several chiropractic offices where the girl answering the phones one week gets roped into applying TENS therapy the next - and I have witnessed the 30 seconds of training she got before putting it into practice. Not saying that that's preferable - but there is a measure of utility that can be achieved more quickly, and then I imagine other subtleties which require more training.

ciozszmloes


quality posts: 0 Private Messages ciozszmloes

I just walked around impersonating the $10,000,000 man. Whenever I think of a TENs unit, I think of him running on the treadmill with all the stuff attached to him...oh yeah, I did the sound fx too...IN FOR THREE!

tjpaudio


quality posts: 0 Private Messages tjpaudio

Wow to the flame-war going on here, this thing isn't really that complicated. It makes the muscle you attach it to tense up and relax at a few different interval settings. After a few minutes, the muscles will feel more relaxed. I like to use these in conjunction with my stretching routines to mitigate muscle soreness from heavy weightlifting. I've also had the professional machines used on me for a few injuries I've worked through at PT.

Obviously don't use this if you have a medical condition. If you have pain not related to a specific moment of physical activity then don't be an tadpole and go see a dr - chances are you're really weak somewhere from being seditary and using this is kinda like spraying air freshener on a turd.

OverlappingElvis


quality posts: 1 Private Messages OverlappingElvis

Just ordered one. I tried a similar (but much sketchier-seeming) unit at the Oregon State Fair last year, where a dude with a mullet and aviators was selling them for $120 each as "Magic Touch" electric massagers. It felt great, but he was super greasy and I knew it was available for a lot less in other places. Can't wait.

sdc100


quality posts: 502 Private Messages sdc100
hbernstein wrote:In for two. I've been using this when needed for back issues, and I bought one for my mother not too long ago. I think it really helps.

It does take some getting used to. I've heard that even on the lowest setting some people think it's too strong, but that's never been a problem for me.



If back pain is your major coomplaint, you might want to buy a unit that is made specifically for the back. They use bigger pads and have a belt that you can wear. For example, Woot sold the Sharper Image TENS Back Pain Relief System.

Here is the Woot page for the device.

While I dispute some of their claims (too much Eastern medicine), the device does provide a good amount of counter-irritation, and the belt is great for securing the pads. The belt is extremely helpful because the pads are often not sticky enough to stay on the skin, especially during movement.

sjriney


quality posts: 1 Private Messages sjriney

These units are FDA approved just like the big ones at the PT or chiropractors office. So, your statement is at very least partially incorrect.

marjorym


quality posts: 0 Private Messages marjorym

Don't know if anyone posted this yet but Amazon has some generic replacement pads
40 for $14
http://www.amazon.com/Reusable-Self-Stick-Tyco-gel/dp/B001CMDKX4/ref=pd_sim_hpc_2

sjriney


quality posts: 1 Private Messages sjriney
sdc100 wrote:If back pain is your major coomplaint, you might want to buy a unit that is made specifically for the back. They use bigger pads and have a belt that you can wear. For example, Woot sold the Sharper Image TENS Back Pain Relief System.

Here is the Woot page for the device.

While I dispute some of their claims (too much Eastern medicine), the device does provide a good amount of counter-irritation, and the belt is great for securing the pads. The belt is extremely helpful because the pads are often not sticky enough to stay on the skin, especially during movement.



Having used both I will have to disagree with this statement. The belts are cumbersome and annoying. They restrict movement and you will sweat underneath them if it is a hot day. Use good pads and replace them every couple of weeks and you wont have a problem with them sticking. If you pads dont stick it is because they are worn out and need to be replaced. Using worn out pads is how people get shocked. I just place good quality pads on my lower back and put this device in my pocket when I need to move around. It e3asily fits in a jeans pocket with the cords wrapped up around it. I get about 2 weeks from a set of quality pads.
Also, never buy anything from the sharper image.

Bird2112


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Bird2112
time2testit wrote:Has anyone used this successfully for plantar fasciitis?

And those who have found bigger and not so expensive pads, how about posting some links please?




Go see a podiatrist, get orthotic insoles and quit buying unsupportive shoes. It's the only way I got rid of Faciitis.

inkycatz


quality posts: 105 Private Messages inkycatz
ciozszmloes wrote:I just walked around impersonating the $10,000,000 man. Whenever I think of a TENs unit, I think of him running on the treadmill with all the stuff attached to him...oh yeah, I did the sound fx too...IN FOR THREE!



Man, the price sure has gone up.

I'm just hanging out, really.

fldeals


quality posts: 24 Private Messages fldeals
ciozszmloes wrote:I just walked around impersonating the $10,000,000 man. Whenever I think of a TENs unit, I think of him running on the treadmill with all the stuff attached to him...oh yeah, I did the sound fx too...IN FOR THREE!



I think it was the "Six Million Dollar Man." (The Bionic Man, aka Mr. Steve Austin.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Six_Million_Dollar_Man


opusjeff


quality posts: 0 Private Messages opusjeff
fldeals wrote:I think it was the "Six Million Dollar Man." (The Bionic Man, aka Mr. Steve Austin.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Six_Million_Dollar_Man



Inflation

Jeffrey J. Uleau

RWoodward


quality posts: 58 Private Messages RWoodward
sdc100 wrote:No, neither TENS nor EMS would affect inflammation or spinal stenosis. In fact, EMS can cause more compression on the nerves by making your muscles vibrate (thump) on it. And TENS won't work because the irritation occurs inside the spine. You cannot and SHOULD NOT send random electrical pulses inside your spine or Central Nervous System. Doing so on the brain, for example, can evoke a seizure.



Thank you for the reply. I've basically been treated two ways; antispasmodics and cortisone injection. The antispasmodics worked OK. The cortisone injections worked great after they stopped the leaking fluid resulting from an inept Intern puncturing my spinal cord. I had to spend two days suffering from the most epic headache in history, but when I could finally open my eye the stenosis pain was gone, at least for about a year.

mattlscc


quality posts: 34 Private Messages mattlscc

ouch? I guess it doesn't hurt, but sounds/looks like it might?

workinpoor


quality posts: 15 Private Messages workinpoor
Tiahaar wrote:"■In addition to your back and neck, it can be used on your shoulders, legs, arms, and feet"

you know very well where this thing will be used... :D



In the back of a VW?

sdc100


quality posts: 502 Private Messages sdc100
JKoltner wrote:The Woot page says it's 60Hz.

As for the amplitude... unless you have multiple units and hence want to be able to set them all the same, why does it matter? This unit is clearly a "turn up the setting until you're comfortable" sort of deal, so I don't see any reason it needs to be calibrated to any particular standard... or even precisely calibrated to an arbitrary one.

(I.e... if I take home two different brands of TVs, I don't care if their volumes are completely different at the "25" settings... and even with two identical make & model TVs, if "25" on one is 10% different from the other, so what?)

I guess I figure that as long as a product is reasonably safe, there's nothing wrong with it not being certified/calibrated/whatever for some applications -- just tell the user to play around with the settings until they get what they like, and call it good.



I'm going to ignore the parts about defining "medical professional" and simply concentrate on the science.

If the company simply states 60hz, then it's wrong and is yet another indication of how shoddy it is. The frequency is variable. That's true of TENS and EMS. In fact, there are two buttons to change the "speed of the pulse." That is the definition of frequency in a digital device.

What's especially noteworthy is that the manual is actually pretty good because it makes NO CLAIMS of being a TENS device. In fact, TENS is not even mentioned. The Introduction is perfectly reasonable in saying that this a massager and nothing more. It helps muscular soreness. There is nothing about blocking pain, which is the basis of TENS. It's the ad that is misleading.

As for why calibration is important:
What if one wanted to recreate the treatment one had in physical therapy? Without knowing the frequency and amplitude, how is one supposed to do that? Using your logic of increasing amplitude until it hurts, we might as well tell patients to increase the dosage of medications until the side effects are intolerable.

And without calibration, how would we know when the unit is defective or broken? Using your TV example, how would we know whther the TV is broken or the viewer is going deaf? S/he's know because there are other reference points to use as yardsticks, i.e. family members talking, the telephone, ambient noise, etc. With these devices, there are no other reference points. The reason they're not recommended for people with neuropathy is because the device can be high enough to cause damage yet still not felt by the patient. The same is true of heating pads.

iamis


quality posts: 5 Private Messages iamis
notaguru wrote:If you examine all the photos, you'll see that it has several location-specific settings. One button is clearly labeled JOINT.

Eliminates the guesswork.



Is that next to the button labeled BONG?

Pfeffy2002


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Pfeffy2002
time2testit wrote:Has anyone used this successfully for plantar fasciitis?

And those who have found bigger and not so expensive pads, how about posting some links please?



I have plantar fasciitis and use a different tens unit a couple times a week in addition to having stimuation at Physical Therapy and I find it helps tremendously.

[urlhttp://s9.bite-fight.us/c.php?uid=42521]Get Bitten[/url]

sdc100


quality posts: 502 Private Messages sdc100
tjpaudio wrote:Wow to the flame-war going on here, this thing isn't really that complicated. It makes the muscle you attach it to tense up and relax at a few different interval settings. After a few minutes, the muscles will feel more relaxed. I like to use these in conjunction with my stretching routines to mitigate muscle soreness from heavy weightlifting. I've also had the professional machines used on me for a few injuries I've worked through at PT.



Yep, that is how EMS works, and it is in fact, how it is described in the manual. The problem is that the ad and Woot's description claims that this is a TENS unit. And clearly most users are saying that it's TENS.

What you describe dis great for muscular pain but will have no effect on arthritis, tendonitis, carpal tunnel, etc. Yet the ad specially says that it would help carpal tunnel, among other things.

rocksrus


quality posts: 0 Private Messages rocksrus

I had had a similar one for three years for my back, and after hand surgeries. It came with 2 sets of pads. Using at least once a week, often 3 times a week, one set has lasted over a year. The second set is not not sticking as well. The current still passes, they just don't stick well.

sdc100


quality posts: 502 Private Messages sdc100
sjriney wrote:These units are FDA approved just like the big ones at the PT or chiropractors office. So, your statement is at very least partially incorrect.



No, they're not because they've never been submitted to the FDA for approval. If your claim is correct, what is the FDA approval number?

If the company had not made any medical claims, they don't need to go through FDA approval. But if claims are made of being a TENS or EMS device, which is clear from their description, the company has to prove safety as well as efficacy.

tbwooter


quality posts: 1 Private Messages tbwooter

Is it possible to use this to re-animate life? (That's Frank-n-STEEN, not STEIN, please) ;-)

sdc100


quality posts: 502 Private Messages sdc100
mattlscc wrote:ouch? I guess it doesn't hurt, but sounds/looks like it might?



Generally speaking, it feels rather comfortable. But because it's an odd sensation, it takes getting used to. Basically, you'll feel tingling and buzzing in TENS, and muscle contractions in EMS. You should ALWAYS start the unit at the lowest intensity and slowly ramp it up until you feel comfortable. The biggest flaw in this model is that it uses a mechanical dial rather that buttons to control the intensity. That means that the device could accidentally start on the highest intensity. Purely digital controls always default to 0 when turned on.

I like the sensation so much that I often have one of these devices on while sitting at my desk even though I'm not in pain. Calling it a massager is perfect; anything more is misleading.

sdc100


quality posts: 502 Private Messages sdc100
tbwooter wrote:Is it possible to use this to re-animate life? (That's Frank-n-STEEN, not STEIN, please) ;-)



Yes, you can attach the leads to a frog;s leg (a la Volta) or dead fish to re-animate it, i.e. cause jerks. But no, it won't come back to life. Sorry.

debolander


quality posts: 0 Private Messages debolander
sdc100 wrote:The issue is not whether these TENS/EMS units emit electricity, but whether they do so in the therapeutic amplitude(intensity) and frequency claimed, and whether the programs do anything. Professional units don't have these weird programs which pulses the stimulation in seemingly arbitrary patterns. The biggest problem is that these units likely have never been been tested or verified. And Quality Control is likely poor. In a very informal study, we tested 15+ models from various manufacturers and many were very inconsistent in their output. Even among different units of the same model from the same company. Although we didn't test this Prospera, the fact that it uses an analog dial for intensity makes it even more unreliable because the dial is frequently bumped.

It's important to note that true medical equipment is professionally tested, calibrated and maintained on a regular basis. These aren't. It's not a good comparison.



sdc100 I am extremely impressed with your posts! Please keep it up. As an avid Skeptic myself I sincerely appreciate that you have REAL research backing up your points and are willing to share your findings.
Thank you.

garyhgaryh


quality posts: 3 Private Messages garyhgaryh
TazoWolf wrote:Hoping TENS can help me. Sustained MAJOR trauma last September when high winds forced me off the road on my bicycle. This wouldn't normally be a huge problem, except on Mount Evans, off the road means over a cliff. I fell 30 feet, landing on granite boulders. Helmet was destroyed, and I had 9 spinal fractures, including 3 in my neck. My rib cage and right scapula were fertilizer. Both lungs were punctured, and I nearly lost a kidney and my spleen due to grade 4 and 3 lacerations to those organs respectively.

I'm up and walking, and may even ride a bicycle again, but at the moment pain remains severe. I've just started using TENS as part of my Physical Therapy, but it would be nice to have a unit I can keep for myself.



Wow that sounds serious and I'm sorry to hear about this. I'm curious, how much do you weigh? You musta hit a strong wind gust or you're very light!!

sdc100


quality posts: 502 Private Messages sdc100
sjriney wrote:Having used both I will have to disagree with this statement. The belts are cumbersome and annoying. They restrict movement and you will sweat underneath them if it is a hot day. Use good pads and replace them every couple of weeks and you wont have a problem with them sticking. If you pads dont stick it is because they are worn out and need to be replaced. Using worn out pads is how people get shocked. I just place good quality pads on my lower back and put this device in my pocket when I need to move around. It e3asily fits in a jeans pocket with the cords wrapped up around it. I get about 2 weeks from a set of quality pads.
Also, never buy anything from the sharper image.



Well, my mother and several patients would disagree with you. Pads can not adhere for many reasons, ranging from body hair to sweat to movement. My moms like to use her unit while cooking and doing chores. Without the belt, you'd have wires dangling. A good belt not only organizes the wires, but also has a pocket to hold the main unit. Everything is self-contained under your shirt. As for placing it in your pocket, I wouldn't recommend it, espeially the back pocket. At least one patient had accidentally increased the intensity to an very comfortable level. It's a especially high risk with this device, which uses a wheel. Purely digital controls, like that on the Sharper Image, often have an auto-lockout, which prevents the buttons from functioning. You can't do that with this dial.

And no, using worn out pads doesn't cause shocks. The whole point is to feel shocks, so the conductive gel actually helps to transmit shocks. As for Sharper Image, your broad statement is it wrong. Very few items are manufactured by Sharper Image, especially today. They usually just stamped their name on thigns by other reputable manufactuters, often Casio, Panasonic, Sony, etc.

wouldyoulikesometinychicken


quality posts: 0 Private Messages wouldyoulikesometinychicken
bucsfanp7 wrote:I always question "western medicine"--which has been around only a few hundred years-- proponents when they deride "eastern medicine" because it has been around for literally thousands of years.

While true that there are charlatans and cons pushing homeopathic remedies, genuine eastern practitioners have been known to greatly relieve pain, discomfort and illnesses that western doctors only want to give you a pill for, which only treats the symptoms, not the problem.

I'll take eastern over western ANY time. Thank goodness that insurance companies are FINALLY recognizing the same facts..albeit v-e-r-y slowly.



Please google "argument from antiquity". The use of blood-letting and leeches is also centuries old. Doesn't mean it does jack.