I have the little brother to these - the Kai Tan Ren.
I actually have to guard my knives from my friends. They are wonderfully balanced, incredibly sharp, and well suited to most tasks.

The long slicing knife took care of turning a primal cut of beef into strip steaks in under 2 minutes.
The paring knife is beyond useful for all small, detailed tasks.*

I could go on about each knife, but I'll leave it at this:
I'm a lefty and I can pass any knife in the collection to a right handed friend and we're both just as fast and comfortable with them.

Buy the knives. Love the knives.

*If you are peeling apples, look at your hands while working. Trust me. This knife is so sharp it took off a chunk of my finger and I only noticed because of the blood. I know - gross, but take the warning.

Shun makes great knives - and this deal on Woot is fantastic. If you're on the fence - you should probably jump on this deal.

That said - I usually find that you can get a better quality/price mix on other brands of Japanese knives.

I'm a big fan of the Tojiro DP - but there are a few others as well that are comparable in quality at a lower price.

*Those who are using a steel on their Shun knives - do you mean a glass/ceramic honing rod? Japanese knives shouldn't be put to the steel, a high grit stone should be used.

danthorg wrote:im sorry, you seem to have gotten it mixed up. this is a western style steel forged into a japanese style knife. no western knives are single bevelled. of course a chinese chef knife (the cleaver looking one) is basically the same as the french chef couteau, with a bit more height for things like cabbage. however, if you ever speak to a chinese chef, they'll never use it as a cleaver, or it'll break apart.
Most japanese chefs worth their buttons will usually use an usuba for most things, that's the single bevelled (wait for it) true japanese chef knife.
you can live in japan all your life and think you're an expert at every aspect of the culture, but until you're in the industry, chances are, you probably just arent.

No, you're the one who is confused. Very confused. Re-read my original post and then your post carefully.

1) You wrote "no western knives are single bevelled.[sic]" So? Who said that Western knives are single beveled? I'm not even sure why you wrote that since the Shuns in today's Woot are double-beveled, and that's what the post you quoted is about. Read it carefully. You seem to think that my post you quoted was referring to my Wasabi knives when it clearly was referring to the knives in today's Woot. After all, I mentioned a bread knife, which was in tis Woot but not the Wasabi set.

2) You wrote, "of course a chinese chef knife (the cleaver looking one) is basically the same as the french chef couteau."

You are confused again. There is no "chinese chef knife" in this Woot. It is a Japanese nakiri, which is considerably different from any Chinese cutlery. Indeed, there is no real "Chinese chef knife." That's a Western term. A "Chinese chef knife" is essentially a big cleaver, which is larger than the nakiri in this set. Don't believe me? Here is the $224 Shun DM0712 Classic 7-Inch Chinese Chef's Knife. Does it look like the small nakiri in this Woot? No. And here is Shun's description: "Essentially a cleaver, this tool features a wide, rectangular blade measuring 7 by 3-3/8 inches." Soory, but that nakiri does not feature a "wide" blade.

So no, a Chinese cleaver (aka "Chinese chef knife") looks nothing like a French couteau. I'm not even sure why you mentioned a Chinese "chef knife" when the description clearly says that it's a nakiri.

3) You wrote "if you ever speak to a chinese chef, they'll never use it as a cleaver." Wrong. First of all, my mother is Chinese (from China and Hong Kong) and a trained cook, so yes, I speak to a Chinese chef regularly. Second, you clearly don't go to Chinatown often. Watch the chefs as they cleave through an entire chicken with a single chop, or prep spare ribs for take out. Go ahead, you can look through the window -- it's free. And while you're there, ask them if there is a separate "Chinese chef knife." Nope, they use their multi-purpose Chinese cleaver for virtually everything.

Here's how Shun's Amazon describes the above Chinese "chef knife": "this heavy-duty Chinese chef’s knife comfortably handles hearty kitchen tasks ranging from cutting through poultry bones to chopping vegetables. Essentially a cleaver, this tool features a wide, rectangular blade..." Shun clearly says that their Chinese chef knife is a cleaver and that it's used to cut bones. I don't know where you got your information, but it conflicts with both Shun, my mom, and the chefs in NYC's Chinatown.

4) You wrote "you can live in japan all your life and think you're an expert at every aspect of the culture, but until you're in the industry, chances are, you probably just arent." Er, I'm not sure what that personal dig is all about but care to QUOTE where I claim to be "an expert at every aspect of the culture"? One thing I've learned as an adult is to avoid using absolutisms like "every aspect." And your claim that I used it just makes you look foolish. In fact, all I claimed was that I never saw a bread knife in any home when I lived in Japan.

Bottom line: You are royally confused about my original post and the topic in general. It would be helpful if you read carefully and did a little research before accusing others of being confused.

FYI ... here are examples of a Chinese "chef knife" (aka cleaver) and a Japanese nakiri (sold in this Woot). See the difference?

Shun DM0712 Classic 7-Inch Chinese Chef's Knife ($224)


Shun Classic 6-1/2-Inch Stainless-Steel Nakiri Knife ($159)

ledastray wrote:... the "steel" most experts I've read recommend is a smooth steel steel or a fine ceramic steel for Japanese edged knives. You are only straighting the cutting edge where it has been rolled to one side or another through use. The courser ribbed steel or "sharpening" steels can cause the edge to chip.

To follow up, I think this:

Ceramic Rod

is the one Chad Ward, of "An Edge in the Kitchen: The Ultimate Guide to Kitchen Knives", recommends. We have this one:

smooth steel

and it works pretty well, though upgrading is on my to-do list.

mymukki wrote:Nice! I'll keep my eye out for electric knife sharpeners and continue blocking my husband's attempts at helping!

Hah. Be careful ... most electric sharpeners are not made to sharpen Japanese knives. Western knives are edged at 22 degrees while these Shuns use 16 degrees. If you run your Shuns through a regular motorized sharpener, you'll ruin them. If you really don't want to mail your knives away for sharpening, and you're not a skilled sharpener, your only other choice is to get the Shun electric sharpener. Or order some other sharpener from Japan. That said, electric sharpeners are great. I bought a used ceramic one on ebay for $14 and my Western style knives are sharpen in about 3 minutes. They even pass the paper test with ease. The key is to find one that holds the blade tightly at the perfect angle using guides, magnets or clips.

dersquisher wrote:I actually have a plastic cutting board that my Shun Elite makes a really strange scratching noise on. I prefer my bamboo one -- why do you say bamboo is not a good choice?

Or does anyone else know? Thanks!

So the deal with bamboo cutting boards....
First they are hard. Really, really hard. So they dull your knives quickly. A good cutting board should let the knife bite into it the tiniest bit both to preserve the knifes edge, and for traction.
Second, remember that traction issue I mentioned? When your knives cant grip a little at the board they slide, slip and bounce and take off bits of your fingers.
This is not a big deal for cutting fish, because that mostly involves sliding the knife between things. It IS a big deal when you're chopping.

Four finger'ed man's got some boxes.

"cajones" == Boxes
"cojones" == those things you meant.

You know, 'Shun Classic Sets' is a really unfortunate choice of name for a product in a western, English speaking, country!

I've heard, and re-heard, multiple accounts of how western based companies have fared poorly in Asia due to badly named products that didn't take into account how poorly western names can translate into the native language. It seems the reverse is also true.

You'd think that whatever marketing division incompetently handled this for the knife company would have learned from those miscues!

hey woot gods... As I know how greedy you guys are and want to keep finding more ways to sell us crap we didn't know we needed... How about a made in America page?

Cheaper @ Overstock by $60.00...
http://www.overstock.com/Home-Garden/Shun-Classic-3-piece-Boxed-Flat-Set/3898651/product.html

roger1979 wrote:Cheaper @ Overstock by $60.00...
http://www.overstock.com/Home-Garden/Shun-Classic-3-piece-Boxed-Flat-Set/3898651/product.html

If their description is accurate, that is a different set. It says:

"Knife set includes 8-inch chef's knife, 6-inch utility knife and 3.5-inch paring knife"

(Though the picture does look like it has the Nakiri, the other two knives look smaller. Hard to say what they're selling.)

Edit: Besides it's out of stock.

seattlekleins wrote:Define heavy kitchen use, maybe? Are you a professional chef and/or throw significant numbers of dinner parties?

If so, you'll want to hand-sharpen them (or have them hand sharpened if you don't know how) probably 4-6 times/year maybe?

It's not terribly hard to sharpen - moreso than a VG1, a little less than the SG2 Shun used for its Elite series, and still uses for their Professional series.

Definitely worth practicing with a cheaper knife if you don't know how to use a stone. Or just pay someone locally, provided they do it by hand and not with a machine (and are accustomed to the 16 degree angle). Alternately, you can ship them to Kai's Oregon shop, and they will sharpen them for you for free. Have to pay for shipping & it takes a little while, but some folks prefer that.

Thanks for the information. I do quite of bit of cooking, but my VG1 knives don't hold an edge as long as I like. Looks like I'll have to sharpen these a lot less.

roger1979 wrote:Cheaper @ Overstock by $60.00...
http://www.overstock.com/Home-Garden/Shun-Classic-3-piece-Boxed-Flat-Set/3898651/product.html

Not the same knives, smaller and cheaper knife set on Overstock.

Come on woot. You could have done better on this deal. Looking at the shun's on amazon there's a set even better deal than this that is a 6-Piece. Not the same knifes, but still. I thank this could have been a better deal if you throw in a sharpening steel, some shears, and maybe a paring knife. Then it'll be a deal.

http://www.amazon.com/Shun-Classic-6-Piece-Knife-Bamboo/dp/B00022YJ6M/

I am calling woot out on this, I guess.

katkiller wrote:Come on woot. You could have done better on this deal. Looking at the shun's on amazon there's a set even better deal than this that is a 6-Piece. Not the same knifes, but still. I thank this could have been a better deal if you throw in a sharpening steel, some shears, and maybe a paring knife. Then it'll be a deal.

http://www.amazon.com/Shun-Classic-6-Piece-Knife-Bamboo/dp/B00022YJ6M/

I am calling woot out on this, I guess.

Three cheaper knives and two more accessories for an extra $100. Go for it, I guess....

sdc100 wrote:If you can't afford Shun's, but want some quality Japanese knives from Shun's parent company, Kai, look for the Kai Wasabi Blonde 3pc Knife Set. Yes, I know that these don't even come close to Shun's or even Sabatier, Wursthof, Global, etc. But they are very good knives and look quite striking and you do get Kai Shun-like quality. But no, that particular set doesn't come with a Chef's Knife or Santoku.

I'm not going to get these Shun Classics, gorgeous as they are- like someone said earlier, I'd end up with a stump. :p (especially if they're for right-handers, since I'm left)

But, I've got some general questions I'm hoping someone can answer.

What RC hardness are the kai wasabi, and how's their edge retention? (it's gotta be better than this walmart ginsu chef's knife I've got!)

I loathe steels, never been able to use them reliably, and have been considering norton/king/etc waterstones, which I'm assuming would be better for any 'good' knife than, say, my little $10 chef's choice sharpener I use for my Ginsu, even if it has a slot for 'asian' knives)

Basically, I'm amateur, but want to learn to be a good cook with *good* knife skills and *good* knives that'll hold an edge and last me years. (I figure something RCH ~60ish is a good choice? I think my ginsu's 52 or something soft, it's 420 steel)

Is it even possible to get a 'shun quality' knife, or even one close, without paying three figures a knife? Or am I just being too zealous about things and overestimating the need for a "high quality knife"?

Christiebunny wrote:I'm not going to get these Shun Classics, gorgeous as they are- like someone said earlier, I'd end up with a stump. :p (especially if they're for right-handers, since I'm left)

But, I've got some general questions I'm hoping someone can answer.

What RC hardness are the kai wasabi, and how's their edge retention? (it's gotta be better than this walmart ginsu chef's knife I've got!)

I loathe steels, never been able to use them reliably, and have been considering norton/king/etc waterstones, which I'm assuming would be better for any 'good' knife than, say, my little $10 chef's choice sharpener I use for my Ginsu, even if it has a slot for 'asian' knives)

Basically, I'm amateur, but want to learn to be a good cook with *good* knife skills and *good* knives that'll hold an edge and last me years. (I figure something RCH ~60ish is a good choice? I think my ginsu's 52 or something soft, it's 420 steel)

Is it even possible to get a 'shun quality' knife, or even one close, without paying three figures a knife? Or am I just being too zealous about things and overestimating the need for a "high quality knife"?

Hey, thanks for only asking easy questions. :-)

I don't think there is a perfect or even best knife. You want to be looking for best *for* *you*. In general harder steel will chip more and be harder to sharpen, but will hold it's edge longer. Different steel has different characteristics that affect its rust resistance, toughness, strength, etc. Lots of tradeoffs. More expensive knives will (to the first order) have more expensive steel & better more careful workmanship. You can get knives some people feel are better than Shuns for less that $100, but they will have serious compromises most of us are unwilling to accept. (E.g. non-stainless steel. Great cutting, but really high maintenance.)

Two tutorials I've found very useful for speaking at my level are:

Basic Cuts
Sharpening

especially the sharpening you can find far more detailed & technical.

One common recommendation is start with a Victorinox Fibrox 8" or 10" Chef's knife or their Santoku and experiment. They are very basic, reasonably cheap, but decent steel knives. See how you like it, learn to sharpen it, etc. Then you are either set or you are more educated when it's time to add to your knife set.

BTW- the "steel" is *NOT* for sharpening. It is used to straighten your cutting edge were it has started to roll (bend to one side or the other.) By doing that your knife stays sharp longer and requires less sharpening. Sharpening could, and has literally, filled books....

Good luck & have fun!

Prime Suspect wrote:I assume everyone knows that these are not actually true Damascus knives. "Damascus-clad" just means that have a Damascus style pattern to them. It's just an aesthetic touch, and doesn't actually improve the hardness of the steel. Doesn't mean they're not good knives. But the pattern is there for show.

To me Damascus clad for knives is the same as gold plated for jewelry. Not worth the money.

Would you buy brass knives that are 'stainless steel clad'?

I actually used to believe the same thing when I purchased a Cutco knife from a client's son as a favor. Turned out to be the best knife of all. Now we have a number of Cutco products. They claim they stand behind their products, but we have never had a problem to put this to the test. We even tried their table steak knives and they are great! Careful - extremely sharp.

ledastray wrote:Hey, thanks for only asking easy questions. :-)

I don't think there is a perfect or even best knife. You want to be looking for best *for* *you*.

[clip]

BTW- the "steel" is *NOT* for sharpening. It is used to straighten your cutting edge were it has started to roll (bend to one side or the other.) By doing that your knife stays sharp longer and requires less sharpening. Sharpening could, and has literally, filled books....

Good luck & have fun!

A good knife, I've been taught for many years, should be an a part of you, an extension of your thoughts. You control a good, properly cared for, knife... a dull knife controls you.

As for sharpening, I know thats what steels are for, I misspoke- the problem I have with them, is keeping a straight and even stroke- I figure a good stone, if I learn to use it right, ~1200 grit, and then finish with 6/8000 grit, and a stropping, should do for sharpening, then just strop it in lieu of the steel, since (for me at least) that'd be easier to control.

I ordered these and did not receive my

Classic 5" Nakiri Knife DM0742

Box came in, both of the other knives were there, but no Nakiri Knife. I emailed woot and they offered a return, but I already gave the 10" Chef's Knife as a gift. They have been ignoring me ever since. What gives? Do they have a phone number? I'm so angry that they are ignoring me and want to talk to someone. Did this happen to anyone else?