kliu0x52


quality posts: 3 Private Messages kliu0x52
razorc03 wrote:I'm not sure if the low-light sensors are junk on the S410. I just did a comparison between the S410 and the FH20.
Settings on both: ISO 100, EXP +2



Um, your S410 picture was taken with a 1-second exposure. Your FH20 picture was taken with a 1/8-second exposure. The S410's shutter was open for 8 times longer and it thus got 8 times more light. This comparison illustrates the difference in exposure times, not sensor quality or low-light performance.

The problem here is with the auto-exposure: you tell the camera to use ISO 100 and no flash, and it will try to compensate by increasing exposure time (the +2EV just tells it to compensate even more) (for the sake of simplicity, I'm going to ignore the aperture since in situations like this, it doesn't make too much of a difference). Most cameras don't support long exposure times when using auto-exposure; for most cameras, if you want your a 1-second exposure or longer, you need to manually tell the camera what you want (I think you have to do some menu-digging on the FH20; on the ZS6, it's much easier--just set the mode dial to "S" to control the exposure time). So the problem here is that the S410's auto-exposure is okay with setting a 1 second shutter, while the FH20 balks at going so slow in auto. It's not that the FH20 can't; in fact, the FH20's (and ZS6's) exposure can be as long as 60 seconds, 4x longer than the S410's max exposure time of 15 seconds.

A proper comparison would have been ISO 100, same aperture, same shutter. THEN the images would have been comparable. EXP +2EV just tells the auto-exposure to be biased in that direction.

As I said in my post, there are two kinds of low-light shooting. One where you use a long exposure time (almost always requiring a tripod--judging from the motion blur that I see in your S410 image, I guess you didn't use a tripod here?), which allows you to kick the ISO down to 100. This is not very interesting, because most cameras perform very similarly in this scenario (again, using auto-exposure, your FH20 did not use a sufficiently long exposure time), and this scenario is not very practical, either, because your subject has to be motionless to avoid motion blur, and you have to extremely stable (usually requiring a tripod) to avoid motion blur--okay for shooting a figurine on a desk, but not good for capturing action at a bar or a concert, where your subject is in motion and you can't set up a tripod.

So when people talk about low-light, they are talking about the type of low-light where you have a relatively fast shutter, and you compensate by jacking up the ISO (and some optical image stabilization, which the S410 lacks, would help a lot too). It is when you jack up the ISO to something like 1600 or higher that you separate the men from the boys and the quality of the sensor becomes apparent. And in this department, the ZS6 would be far, far better than the S410 (which can't even go above 400) (but Fuji's EXR cameras are even better, at least among non-DSLRs, and of course, nothing beats a proper DSLR).

One more note about your pictures: Almost all the cameras I've seen do NOT have shutters that slow down to 1 second or longer when using auto-exposure. If you want the shutter to remain open for that long, you gotta manually tell the camera that. Low-ISO stabilized shots are almost always done in shutter-priority mode (the "S" or "Tv" on the dial) and not regular auto mode.

sdc100


quality posts: 410 Private Messages sdc100
R70Runner wrote:You back this up how? The FH20 sold here on the 5th arrived in California on the 10th! Both are/were listed as "ground" not smartpost.



I live in NYC and have also been pretty lucky. Things tend to arrive within a week or so. In fact, one item shipped before I had a chance to cancel. There are many variables beyond Woot's control, i.e. Fedex and USPS (for SmartPost). Fedex is pretty good but USPS is awful. The increased holiday shipping traffic may also delay things.

When we get close to Xmas, you'll see an icon warning us when an item [b]definitely[/n] will NOT arrive in time.

sdc100


quality posts: 410 Private Messages sdc100
NightGhost wrote:Yes.

"The DMC-ZS6 features a powerful 12x optical zoom lens (35mm camera equivalent: 25-300mm). This gives you highly natural expressions from people and animals that you can't get close to. It is also available in movie recording with the mechanism designed to minimize the noise of auto focusing or zooming."



That's a nice improvement over some cameras which allow zooming but shuts off the mike when doing so. You end up with audio gaps every time you zoom. Even worse are cameras that don't allow zooming at all in movie mode, which seems to be the case with most cheap point-and-shoots.

JOATMON


quality posts: 19 Private Messages JOATMON

One point that has only indirectly been made is that these were sold only at Costco. I bought one with a $50 off coupon about 7 months ago for a friend, and she loves it.

I'm surprised there have been enough returns at Costco to support a woot offering. I wonder why people returned them.

I'm tempted to get one for myself. My Canon S3-IS is great, but rather bulky.

Juvie: 30+24+4; Sellout: 6+7+0
Rags: 3+2+3
Drunk: 69+94+15 wine, 20+29+4 non-wine
Rugrat: 0+0+0; Refunded: 2+3+1
(as of 2011-03-02)

jimbrady


quality posts: 2 Private Messages jimbrady
bigfatbass wrote:Sales tax makes this not a deal. wootazon sucks ass.



Well, sure wish I'd read this before purchasing. I'm in NY and this is the first Woot purchase for which I've been charged taxes (12 bucks). Does this mean the thing will arrive quicker than your usual slowass shipping?

kmith


quality posts: 5 Private Messages kmith
sdc100 wrote:Avidemux is my free editor of choice (in WIndows 7) ...rarely works.



With all these problems why don't you use MS Movie Maker?

jmbunkin


quality posts: 24 Private Messages jmbunkin

Looks like this is available at Costco now through the 19th for $220.00 new. Referbs bother me and I really worry about the battery life of a "used" camera even with the $70 savings on Woot.
http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11532931&whse=BC&Ne=4000000&eCat=BC|90607|83&N=4047256&Mo=50&No=2&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&cat=83&Ns=P_Price|1||P_SignDesc1&lang=en-US&Sp=C

sabojo


quality posts: 0 Private Messages sabojo
sdc100 wrote:If videos matter to you, keep in mind that Panasonics use the MOV container. That's good news for Mac users but bad for the vast majority of computer users who use Windows. As far as I can tell, there are no free or inexpensive Windows program that can edit MOVs.



True, but you can easily convert it to an avi file. Use mencoder or ffmpeg. You can get ffmpeg here (select windows 32-bit).

This command line will give you a decent 1-pass encode with a file size ~25% of the mov file:
ffmpeg -i filename.MOV -qscale 3 -vstats -g 30 -vcodec mpeg4 -vtag divx -f avi -y -acodec libmp3lame -ab 128000 -bf 2 filename.avi

(of course replace "filename" with your mov file name)

justinrageth


quality posts: 0 Private Messages justinrageth
jmbunkin wrote:Looks like this is available at Costco now through the 19th for $220.00 new. Referbs bother me and I really worry about the battery life of a "used" camera even with the $70 savings on Woot.
http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11532931&whse=BC&Ne=4000000&eCat=BC|90607|83&N=4047256&Mo=50&No=2&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&cat=83&Ns=P_Price|1||P_SignDesc1&lang=en-US&Sp=C



Also on amazon...

songs2001


quality posts: 0 Private Messages songs2001
Shinespark wrote:Don't forget a smaller LCD of half the resolution, and significantly different firmware.



V lux 20 is 460k dots. Looks like it's the same lcd screen.

songs2001


quality posts: 0 Private Messages songs2001
kmith wrote:How does this compare to the Samsung from Woot several months ago? Both have German lens design and 24mm wide angle. I know about the MOV difference. Anything else?



They just have German names, Panasonic designs the lenses and sticks the Leica name for a fee and Samsung does the same with their lenses and Schneider.

songs2001


quality posts: 0 Private Messages songs2001
archerman2000 wrote:Strange that both DPreview and imaging-resource.com reviewed both the ZS5 and ZS7 but not the ZS6... but both seem to have favorable reviews.

If you are thinking about purchasing I'd suggest reading both reviews(links above).... good stuff!



They sold the ZS6 at Costcos, this is probably the Costco demo units, ZS6 is basically the ZS7 without the video recording codec and GPS.

kmith


quality posts: 5 Private Messages kmith
sabojo wrote:True, but you can easily convert it to an avi file. Use mencoder or ffmpeg.



Thanks. I will try Transcode on Linux.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcode_%28software%29
or MEncoder
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MEncoder

songs2001


quality posts: 0 Private Messages songs2001
sdc100 wrote:Were you recording in HD? Since the limitation seems to be memory and not time, lower resolutions will record longer before it reaches the 2gb limit. Also does your ZS3 use a different CODEC? This uses MJPEG, which is very inefficient. If your camera uses H.264 compression, you can hold roughly 4x as much video in the same memory, so that may translate to longer time.

The SD class/speed shouldn't affect how much memory the buffer can hold before having to stop. It would affect how fast you can shoot stills, and possibly, whether the videos will drop frames.



You are wrong, the camera defaults to SD video when you insert a slower SD card. The camera will buffer video the same regardless. The 2gb limit is not a buffer limitation. Please stop spreading misinformation. Thanks.


jmbunkin


quality posts: 24 Private Messages jmbunkin
justinrageth wrote:Also on amazon...



Think Amazon is $30 more than Costco though.

kmith


quality posts: 5 Private Messages kmith
songs2001 wrote:They just have German names, Panasonic designs the lenses and sticks the Leica name for a fee and Samsung does the same with their lenses and Schneider.



Really?
http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/samsung/objektive_samsung_e.htm
http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/LeicaLensExplained?storeId=15001&catalogId=13401&langId=-1&catGroupId=24999
These are genuine German designs.

dmull305


quality posts: 1 Private Messages dmull305

I've been up for about two hours looking to buy a camera...Lo and behold...checked this sight and found a very nice camera for the money...I'm in for one....After all my research I found that there is no such thing as a "perfect" camera...This one is hard to beat though...

jonesy30


quality posts: 0 Private Messages jonesy30

Two questions for the wanna-upgrade-from-point-and-shoot crowd:

1. Will this do the cool focus on subject while blurring the background thing?

2. How much time between shots? My kids move F-A-S-T and I'm always missing something!

davelalande


quality posts: 2 Private Messages davelalande

Can you use this camera like a webcam?

songs2001


quality posts: 0 Private Messages songs2001
jonesy30 wrote:Two questions for the wanna-upgrade-from-point-and-shoot crowd:

1. Will this do the cool focus on subject while blurring the background thing?

2. How much time between shots? My kids move F-A-S-T and I'm always missing something!



1. no, unless you are shooting macro

2. it'll be slow,

Get yourself a DSLR for those two things.

Wyzkyd


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Wyzkyd

Time to upgrade from my Samsung 10MP that I wooted 2 years ago. Haven't used half the features on it yet, but spending the Holidays in the Caribbean and want to grab some decent shots. Found my old 35MM gathering dust the other day and decided to leave it behind. Comfort zone has remained my 35MM and negative scanner for some time now because of the quality and interchangeability of the lenses. Going out of my comfort zone for this one.

songs2001


quality posts: 0 Private Messages songs2001
kmith wrote:Really?
http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/samsung/objektive_samsung_e.htm
http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/LeicaLensExplained?storeId=15001&catalogId=13401&langId=-1&catGroupId=24999
These are genuine German designs.



From your link

The Leica DC lenses are manufactured using measurement instruments and quality assurance systems that have been certified by Leica Camera AG based on the company's quality standards.



Nothing about Leica designing nor making the lenses.

Same with the Schneider. It doesn't say that Schneider actually makes those lenses for Samsung.

nah85


quality posts: 1 Private Messages nah85

I had my mind set on a canon powershot 1400, now I am not so sure.

anishsc


quality posts: 1 Private Messages anishsc
kimtso wrote:When they run around and do things, does it capture it all clearly?


http://www.youtube.com/authorsauditions#p/u/4/nEKb1POD50k

http://www.youtube.com/authorsauditions#p/u/5/s4bI57eG7TY (If I had used the beach mode the wind noise would would have been cut down )

TeepoOBR


quality posts: 1 Private Messages TeepoOBR

Quality post notification:

"anishsc can moving kids with no blurring."

It appears to be missing a word between can and moving. I feel like adding any type of mad lib would be incriminating.

(yes, even shoot).

Scot_Douglas


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Scot_Douglas
NewMaster wrote:A camera needs a larger sensor and a bright lens to do well in low light (without a flash). Small cameras don't have either of those things, so chances are this one won't work well.



I'd like to verify some of this info and to it. I own this camera (well, the 10X ZS1) - bought it because I fell for the "Leica" lens and the huge optical zoom. My wife wanted a small camera we could easily carry around on vacation and not have to lug a SLR.

Low light performance sucks. There's no better way to describe it. This isn't excusable because the camera is small - I own a Canon S100 that is smaller, older and 1.2 megapixels - and the Canon takes better shots than the Panasonic in EVERY situation.

Also, I don't know if it has been mentioned yet - Panasonic uses a battery detection routine in their current camera firmware. What this equates to is that it can recognize the battery brand, and will shut itself off if you try to use a cheaper replacement battery. You can get around this by an extensive internet search to find an older version of firmware to downgrade your camera to. I did this because other reviews mentioned short battery life - and I didn't feel like spending $65 on an extra "Panasonic" brand battery.

An avid photographer friend recently told me - if you want quality pictures from a point-and-shoot, look for something from a camera manufacturer; not a "consumer electronics" company.

A sample of the best photo I could get at night:


-at any size larger than this, the picture is horrible (and it ain't so great here either).

YMMV,
Scot

swankallcity


quality posts: 0 Private Messages swankallcity


What are the concerns about a refurb? That's the only thing holding me back on this.

juicius


quality posts: 38 Private Messages juicius

Nice Walking Dead reference. Great comic and very good TV series on AMC.

Thurgil


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Thurgil
Ryan323 wrote:How does this camera do in low light situations? I do photo's for a local band and the majority of their shows are in dark bars/clubs, so that is kind of an important quality in the camera...



This camera is not really ideal for that, you need something with a large aperture (low f-stop, ~2.0) and a wide angle lens probably would not hurt. I can recommend the Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5 and only very slightly less the Cannon S90/95 as I have used them both in some very challenging conditions (low light + bright subject) and been impressed.

Lhyzz


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Lhyzz
NightGhost wrote:Link?

Amazon - $251.45

froogled



Cheapest refurb on Amazon is currently $189.95

kmith


quality posts: 5 Private Messages kmith
songs2001 wrote:Nothing about Leica designing nor making the lenses.

Same with the Schneider. It doesn't say that Schneider actually makes those lenses for Samsung.



I don't think they make them. Just design them. They're probably made by a third party in China.


Do you have a link that supports the 'brand-only' claim?

Holgatefam


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Holgatefam

I've had the TZ5 for several years, it's a great camera for the size. We shoot all our pictures in 16x9 to view on the TV. When you mix in HD video clips (also 16x9), it's wonderful. You can mix in the .MOV video clips with your pictures in iPhoto (Mac) and run a slideshow w stills and video.

kmith


quality posts: 5 Private Messages kmith
swankallcity wrote:What are the concerns about a refurb? That's the only thing holding me back on this.



No concern. I buy refurb all the time.

robsuzanne


quality posts: 1 Private Messages robsuzanne
Mezquitic wrote:Let me show some videos take with 2 different lumix on concerts:
this one is with a 5mp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8PgbSBjUyc
and this with a 7mp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-df8eZf2IvQ
Right know I have the 10mp version and I'm so tempted to buy this one.



Do not get caught up in the MP game. The sensor in this camera is a tiny thing... about the size of an adult pinky nail. More MP is just a simple way of getting you to buy cameras while not having to improve the camera. Without getting all camera tech on you... trust me... 10mp to 12mp in this camera will NOT get you better results.

For those thinking this will be a great camera for photos of children and such... perhaps its time to look into a real camera. These cameras are good for casual shots at parties and such. dSLRs are for real photos.

sracer


quality posts: 4 Private Messages sracer
sdc100 wrote:I can't speak for the Lumix but other point-and-shoots that I've used will freeze up while it writes everything to SD. Motion JPEG is essentially a continuous series of JPG stills. So a good analogy is the burst mode of many cameras. After shooting in burst mode, the camera must pause to write before allowing another burst.

The end result is that you risk missing something important when the camera "hiccups." This is an issue in many events, i.e. speeches and ceremonies, since most are longer than 8 mins.


I believe that your information is out of date. I own a Lumix TZ5 and have experienced no hiccups when recording videos nor the limit of 8 minutes. I've recorded school plays (45-60 minutes) in varying light conditions without problems.

I do agree however that the Lumix is not a replacement for a camcorder. The built-in mic has limitations and the grip position for a still camera is different than a video camera, making longer recordings more fatiguing.


robsuzanne wrote:For those thinking this will be a great camera for photos of children and such... perhaps its time to look into a real camera. These cameras are good for casual shots at parties and such. dSLRs are for real photos.


I disagree. This Lumix offers a nice manual mode that allows you to tweak the settings to accomodate a variety of conditions. The iA (Intelligent Auto) does a great job as a point-n-shoot as well.

Search the 'net... you'll find that these Lumix cameras have been used with great success by world travelers to capture some breathtaking photos... which many would consider "real photos".

The "dSLRs are for real photos" comment makes you sound like some self-important elitist.

dymekd


quality posts: 0 Private Messages dymekd

I picked this camera up from Costco back in July as we needed a camera for our vacation with a long zoom. About halfway through the trip, the camera decided it was much darker than it really was, and overexposed about 200 photos. That was fun trying to fix. We were in Belize, Honduras, etc, so it may have problems with humidity.

So, of the 100 photos I didn't have to correct, the mega-zoom is useless without a tripod. Anything zoomed in came out blurry at worst, or really grainy at best (by steadying the camera on a handy surface). Otherwise, comparing to my other cameras, the pictures were not as good as my trusty, 7 year old, Canon PowerShot S50, were better than my Casio Exilim, and better than an iPhone.

The camera I have now, a Nikon Coolpix S8100, finally beat the Canon in versatility and matched it in image quality. Was at Costco 2 weeks ago for $229 but seems to have been discontinued.

El Marko


quality posts: 7 Private Messages El Marko
nah85 wrote:I had my mind set on a canon powershot 1400, now I am not so sure.



The SD1400 is significantly smaller. I bought one for my wife as her "purse" camera.

However this Lumix has me thinking I need to buy myself a Xmas present . . .

NewMaster


quality posts: 15 Private Messages NewMaster
archerman2000 wrote:Strange that both DPreview and imaging-resource.com reviewed both the ZS5 and ZS7 but not the ZS6... but both seem to have favorable reviews.



It doesn't have a review because the ZS6 is not in the regular Panasonic line. It is made specially for retailers such as Costco.

dbains


quality posts: 1 Private Messages dbains

Does the camera have a stitching function?

rstclair


quality posts: 0 Private Messages rstclair

In for 1! Got the SquareTrade warranty just in case, too, since this is a gift. If anyone is interested, code SANTA gets you 20% off the warranty. FWIW, I've had a Panasonic Lumix for several years without a single issue.