marymarauder10


quality posts: 0 Private Messages marymarauder10
bsmith1 wrote:If you believe fossil records, homosapiens have been around much longer than the popular organized religions of today. Yet somehow we've survived generation after generation. That, to me, is a miracle in itself.



So you think that, if there is a God, he only came into existence once people started believing in him? I think that he was in existence that entire time and that people didn't start realizing it until religion was starting to be practiced.

Derek Bjornstad

Teripie


quality posts: 7 Private Messages Teripie

I think the belief or nonbelief of religion, is in your genes. I think this can also relate to morals as well. It’s a combination of nature and nurture. Do a Google search on “evolutionary god genetics.” The stuff that comes up is fascinating. Of course, if you don’t believe in evolution, you needn’t waste your time.

“Anything is a great deal at some price,” Some Rutledge Guy.

itoaseik


quality posts: 2 Private Messages itoaseik
marymarauder10 wrote:If you want to believe in an IPU, go right ahead. I'm not going to question your beliefs just like I don't think you have any right to question mine.



In my opinion, the whole point of any religious discussion is to question each other's beliefs as well as our own, so long as we can hopefully keep things friendly or at least civil.

As far as the burden of proof goes... I don't think that's necessarily a requirement for one side of the argument or another. Each person must decide what they require for evidence to be credible, and how much is required for belief. Some people are more or less skeptical in general. This is why some people believe in Jesus and ghosts and psychics and bigfoot all at the same time, but I would call those people simply gullible.

At some point, if something cannot be explained by science, it becomes reasonable to attribute it to God. However, science can explain a whole awful lot nowadays, and I've never seen or credibly heard of anything that seems to me to be a "miracle."

Honestly, I think faith is an evolved coping mechanism for keeping us happy and breeding in the face of our own mortality. I don't rule out the possibility of a God, but I consider skepticism a positive trait. So, I try to stay happy (and breeding) for my own sake.

itoaseik


quality posts: 2 Private Messages itoaseik
PemberDucky wrote:i did a little research.
it was for this post.

if you post actively in product threads, it can be a little tricky to figure out which of your posts was awarded a quality post. best thing is just to keep an eye on the number & post nothing but amazing things all the time always.
;]



I had to research my first quality post. Turned out it was for griping about the lack of a circumcision joke in a golf-related Woot Plus sale. I was so proud.

daveinwarshington


quality posts: 31 Private Messages daveinwarshington

Atheists don't bother me.

I don't see them out there blowing up and killing people, like some radical religions.

However..... If you are wrong about God..... And you are an Atheist..... Eternity is a looooong time!!!!!

marymarauder10


quality posts: 0 Private Messages marymarauder10
itoaseik wrote: Each person must decide what they require for evidence to be credible, and how much is required for belief.



I agree 100%.

Derek Bjornstad

bsmith1


quality posts: 111 Private Messages bsmith1
marymarauder10 wrote:So you think that, if there is a God, he only came into existence once people started believing in him? I think that he was in existence that entire time and that people didn't start realizing it until religion was starting to be practiced.



No, my point is that we got along just fine before recognizing a god, so why bother now? Miracles, by definition, can't be explained so you can't just write-off unusual events as god's work. Explaining the unexplainable with something unexplainable (god) is cheating. Like when a program does something weird and I blame the gremlins in the system. I have no proof of gremlins, but it's more convenient than finding the real reason for the exception.

tonygriffinus


quality posts: 0 Private Messages tonygriffinus

I don't believe in them

Irythros


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Irythros
bsmith1 wrote:No, my point is that we got along just fine before recognizing a god, so why bother now? Miracles, by definition, can't be explained so you can't just write-off unusual events as god's work. Explaining the unexplainable with something unexplainable (god) is cheating. Like when a program does something weird and I blame the gremlins in the system. I have no proof of gremlins, but it's more convenient than finding the real reason for the exception.



Unfortunately my followers/worshippers (bosses, coworkers) don't believe when I say that. Time to serve up some punishment.

dinajames


quality posts: 0 Private Messages dinajames
FreePlayPSP wrote:
...By the way, if your moral compass is defined by the God of the Old Testament, I don't want you anywhere near me...



Why does this seem to be the favorite argument of non believers? Christians use the old testament as a history lesson a foundation of how God reveled himself to his people. The new testament where we meet and learned of our Savior Jesus Christ is what we follow and how we should act. Loving our brother and picking them up where there are down. Just knowing the bible scriptures is not enough. He does not want us to judge..."He is without sin may cast the first stone" we are not all gay haters. We love our brothers as Jesus would have loved us for being imperfect flawed humans that we all are. And that is before sexual orientation comes into play If we walk as he did only spreading his words of love and peace and minding our own business then we deserve a mansion. Living according the new testament seems like a pretty awesome way to walk this earth until I can meet Him. Don't judges us by the teachings we believe in. There will never be anything wrong with having Faith and Hope and loving you fellow man.

pmcoyne


quality posts: 0 Private Messages pmcoyne
DoDred wrote:I feel sorry for them. They have no idea what they are going to be missing out on. I know some that have covered to atheism from Christianity because they have fallen for the evolutionist dribble (and they think we have fallen for creationist dribble). I have given a lot of study to both. Creationist have the better end of it.



the need for a belief in god is nothing more that a leftover bit of evolutionary process. We are at base gregarious primates. Our social life is driven by some basic imperatives built in to our genes for our genetic predecessors to survive to produce children - this result was that we operated far more successfully in groups than alone. Group hierarchy is also in built - not we still use the term a personality.

To the present time - we look to a god because we need a super A persona.

God is nothing more than an unnecessary genetic leftover.

marymarauder10


quality posts: 0 Private Messages marymarauder10
bsmith1 wrote:No, my point is that we got along just fine before recognizing a god, so why bother now? Miracles, by definition, can't be explained so you can't just write-off unusual events as god's work. Explaining the unexplainable with something unexplainable (god) is cheating. Like when a program does something weird and I blame the gremlins in the system. I have no proof of gremlins, but it's more convenient than finding the real reason for the exception.



I can "write-off" those unusual events as acts of God if I so choose. That's my right to believe what I want. Me believing in something that you don't or choose not to acknowledge as existing isn't "cheating". It's me choosing to have faith in something that you do not. Just because my view is different from yours doesn't make it wrong.

Derek Bjornstad

crazywahoo


quality posts: 0 Private Messages crazywahoo
pluggwolf wrote:Frankly as the person trying to prove something the burden falls more to you. I can say this chair sitting next me exists. If I can't show you that the chair exists. If I can't prove to you that the chair exists than why should you have to prove my chair does not exist?

Granted I can prove a chair exists. It is here. I can feel it. See it. Smell it. Taste it. Hear it. I can observe the chair with all of me senses. So can other people. Thus proving that I am not the only person seeing the chair.

That is the basis I work on for proof. If I cannot observe it. If I cannot provide others with my observations and have them observe the same thing. Then I have no proof.

Granted. I have no proof that your god does not exist. All I have is the fact that I cannot observe him. I cannot use my five senses to prove that he is there. That's all the proof I need for myself. Thus I don't believe.



But what happens when you leave the room and close the door. Does the chair still exist then? Can we really believe our five senses? Please help answer my questions IPU. I have only read half of Decartes philosophy.

itoaseik


quality posts: 2 Private Messages itoaseik
bsmith1 wrote:No, my point is that we got along just fine before recognizing a god, so why bother now? Miracles, by definition, can't be explained so you can't just write-off unusual events as god's work. Explaining the unexplainable with something unexplainable (god) is cheating. Like when a program does something weird and I blame the gremlins in the system. I have no proof of gremlins, but it's more convenient than finding the real reason for the exception.



I'm pretty sure God/gods have existed as long as human language and anything that could be called rational thought.

I can still blame barking spiders when I fart, though, right?

marymarauder10


quality posts: 0 Private Messages marymarauder10
crazywahoo wrote:But what happens when you leave the room and close the door. Does the chair still exist then? Can we really believe our five senses? Please help answer my questions IPU. I have only read half of Decartes philosophy.



Schrödinger's cat

Derek Bjornstad

marymarauder10


quality posts: 0 Private Messages marymarauder10
itoaseik wrote:Blaming barking spiders for that fart sound is still ok, though, right?



I guess I always thought it was a mouse on a motor-scooter...

Derek Bjornstad

gurubill


quality posts: 0 Private Messages gurubill
bpfordte wrote:I've found that those that deny the existence of God are usually just looking for a way to avoid accountability. .....



Consider: Christianity, indeed all monotheists, define God as 'all seeing, all knowing, all powerful and 'beyond man's knowing other than through faith'

Yet, you proclaim that God cannot provide multiple ways to know Him. That contradicts 'all powerful' at least.

Consider: If you do consider God 'all powerful' and consider Creationism /Intelligent Design to be 'His work' then your defining what is permissible for Him to do is at a minimum highly egotistical.

Gender appears to be a 'Bell curve' with each creature's position on that curve defined during gestation. This same Bell gender curve exists for every species that has been studied. Therefore it must be part of God's plan. Or did you again decide God isn't 'all powerful' or 'beyond man's knowing'?

These are only two of the contradictions in your 'beliefs'.

Perhaps you need to use the rational thought process God imbued you with when 'He created man in His own image' and reconsider your beliefs.

God exists for me simply because I need Him to. I live my life in the best way I am capable of and trust that God will take care of any life beyond death He has in mind. What I do every day is what counts, not some man's sprinkling or dipping me in water and pronouncing me 'saved'.

Baptism and 'saved' are simply 'Get Out of Jail Free Cards' invented by men to allow them to pretty much do anything they want and still go to their 'Heaven'.

fightinghellfish


quality posts: 2 Private Messages fightinghellfish

If God didnt exist, it would be necessary to create him.

I love this quote from Voltaire, and I think it says it all.

bsmith1


quality posts: 111 Private Messages bsmith1
marymarauder10 wrote:I can "write-off" those unusual events as acts of God if I so choose. That's my right to believe what I want. Me believing in something that you don't or choose not to acknowledge as existing isn't "cheating". It's me choosing to have faith in something that you do not. Just because my view is different from yours doesn't make it wrong.



It might not make you wrong, but without anything to back it up it doesn't make you right either. You're just guessing/assuming. Saying you don't know what causes miracles (if anything) is a lot different from claiming to know the answer and using that as your proof for god's existence.
If miracles are your supporting evidence for god's existence, you can't say you know god is responsible for miracles "because I have faith in god". That's that circular logic I was talking about.

marymarauder10


quality posts: 0 Private Messages marymarauder10
gurubill wrote:[quote postid="5520622" user="bpfordte"]I've found that those that deny the existence of God are usually just looking for a way to avoid accountability. .....

Consider: Christianity, indeed all monotheists, define God as 'all seeing, all knowing, all powerful and 'beyond man's knowing other than through faith'

Yet, you proclaim that God cannot provide multiple ways to know Him. That contradicts 'all powerful' at least.

Consider: If you do consider God 'all powerful' and consider Creationism /Intelligent Design to be 'His work' then your defining what is permissible for Him to do is at a minimum highly egotistical.

Gender appears to be a 'Bell curve' with each creature's position on that curve defined during gestation. This same Bell gender curve exists for every species that has been studied. Therefore it must be part of God's plan. Or did you again decide God isn't 'all powerful' or 'beyond man's knowing'?

These are only two of the contradictions in your 'beliefs'.

Perhaps you need to use the rational thought process God imbued you with when 'He created man in His own image' and reconsider your beliefs.

God exists for me simply because I need Him to. I live my life in the best way I am capable of and trust that God will take care of any life beyond death He has in mind. What I do every day is what counts, not some man's sprinkling or dipping me in water and pronouncing me 'saved'.

Baptism and 'saved' are simply 'Get Out of Jail Free Cards' invented by men to allow them to pretty much do anything they want and still go to their 'Heaven'.



1) Who said God can't provide multiple ways of knowing him?

2) How is Creationism highly egotistical?

3) I've never heard of Baptism being explained as a "Get out of jail free card". I was taught that it is to wash away the sin that Adam and Eve committed in the Garden of Eden when they ate from the tree. What you do after your Baptism is all on you and if you sin, you still have to ask for forgiveness of those sins.

Derek Bjornstad

steinyy


quality posts: 0 Private Messages steinyy

I don't believe in them....

marymarauder10


quality posts: 0 Private Messages marymarauder10
bsmith1 wrote:It might not make you wrong, but without anything to back it up it doesn't make you right either. You're just guessing/assuming. Saying you don't know what causes miracles (if anything) is a lot different from claiming to know the answer and using that as your proof for god's existence.
If miracles are your supporting evidence for god's existence, you can't say you know god is responsible for miracles "because I have faith in god". That's that circular logic I was talking about.



There isn't any "circular logic" to it. If I find something that I can't see as being explained by something of earthly being, I believe that it is an act of God. That seems like a pretty straight line to me.

Derek Bjornstad

bsmith1


quality posts: 111 Private Messages bsmith1
marymarauder10 wrote:There isn't any "circular logic" to it. If I find something that I can't see as being explained by something of earthly being, I believe that it is an act of God. That seems like a pretty straight line to me.



I can't really draw a circle here, but follow these steps and let me know when you get to the end...(hint, if it never ends, it's circular!)

1) How do you know god exists?
2) Because of miracles/unexplained.
3) How do you know god causes those?
4) Because I have faith in god.
5) See step #1

marymarauder10


quality posts: 0 Private Messages marymarauder10
bsmith1 wrote:I can't really draw a circle here, but follow these steps and let me know when you get to the end...(hint, if it never ends, it's circular!)

1) How do you know god exists?
2) Because of miracles/unexplained.
3) How do you know god causes those?
4) Because I have faith in god.
5) See step #1



This would be a perfect case to prove your insanity. You keep asking the same questions over and over again expecting to get a different result. For me, I have enough evidence to believe in God after step 4. I don't need to add another step after that. If it's not enough for you, then I'm sorry. You'll have to keep asking question and I hope someday you'll find the answers you're looking for.

Derek Bjornstad

bsmith1


quality posts: 111 Private Messages bsmith1
marymarauder10 wrote:This would be a perfect case to prove your insanity. You keep asking the same questions over and over again expecting to get a different result. For me, I have enough evidence to believe in God after step 4. I don't need to add another step after that. If it's not enough for you, then I'm sorry. You'll have to keep asking question and I hope someday you'll find the answers you're looking for.



Faith <> Evidence
Can you imagine if the court of law worked that way?
1) How do you know I'm guilty?
2) Because something bad happened I can't explain how.
3) How do you know I did it?
4) Because I have faith you did.
Guilty!

Or scientific theories...
1) How do you know evolution is real?
2) Because we exist.
3) How do you know evolution caused that?
4) Because I believe in evolution.
Theory proven!

marymarauder10


quality posts: 0 Private Messages marymarauder10
bsmith1 wrote:Faith <> Evidence
Can you imagine if the court of law worked that way?
1) How do you know I'm guilty?
2) Because something bad happened I can't explain how.
3) How do you know I did it?
4) Because I have faith you did.
Guilty!

Or scientific theories...
1) How do you know evolution is real?
2) Because we exist.
3) How do you know evolution caused that?
4) Because I believe in evolution.
Theory proven!



I don't have to go by the rules of a court to decide what I want to believe in. Besides, I don't think the Judicial system would be any more messed up going by that theory than it is now.

Derek Bjornstad

darkchylde13


quality posts: 1 Private Messages darkchylde13
PemberDucky wrote:i did a little research.
it was for this post.

if you post actively in product threads, it can be a little tricky to figure out which of your posts was awarded a quality post. best thing is just to keep an eye on the number & post nothing but amazing things all the time always.
;]



nice, thanks! I'm pretty sure all my posts are awesome... but I could be a little biased...

itoaseik


quality posts: 2 Private Messages itoaseik
gurubill wrote:Gender appears to be a 'Bell curve' with each creature's position on that curve defined during gestation. This same Bell gender curve exists for every species that has been studied. Therefore it must be part of God's plan. Or did you again decide God isn't 'all powerful' or 'beyond man's knowing'?



I am intrigued and amused, but mostly confused. How does gender fit a Bell curve? Please explain.

darkchylde13


quality posts: 1 Private Messages darkchylde13
itoaseik wrote:I had to research my first quality post. Turned out it was for griping about the lack of a circumcision joke in a golf-related Woot Plus sale. I was so proud.



nice, as well you should have been

bsmith1


quality posts: 111 Private Messages bsmith1
marymarauder10 wrote:I don't have to go by the rules of a court to decide what I want to believe in.



That's true. It's a little scary, though, when people make decisions and live their lives based on beliefs that are not based on any sort of rational, justifiable argument. Especially when they try to insert those beliefs into our laws that impact citizens of all beliefs.

Good chatting with you! Have a pleasant evening. Thanks to woot for not pulling this forum down!

marymarauder10


quality posts: 0 Private Messages marymarauder10
bsmith1 wrote:That's true. It's a little scary, though, when people make decisions and live their lives based on beliefs that are not based on any sort of rational, justifiable argument. Especially when they try to insert those beliefs into our laws that impact citizens of all beliefs.

Good chatting with you! Have a pleasant evening. Thanks to woot for not pulling this forum down!



I don't feel that my religious beliefs should be imposed on others through laws but someone's beliefs always will be.

I definitely enjoyed our little chat and too would like to give my props to Woot! and to all those who were commenting and kept it a civilized conversation.

Derek Bjornstad

cmackin


quality posts: 0 Private Messages cmackin
dtairtime wrote:I really don't care what anyone is as long as they don't try to impose their beliefs on me any more than I try to impose mine on theirs.

Which is zip by the way!



Amen Brother (that's an atheist Amen btw)

darkchylde13


quality posts: 1 Private Messages darkchylde13
dinajames wrote:Why does this seem to be the favorite argument of non believers? Christians use the old testament as a history lesson a foundation of how God reveled himself to his people. The new testament where we meet and learned of our Savior Jesus Christ is what we follow and how we should act. Loving our brother and picking them up where there are down. Just knowing the bible scriptures is not enough. He does not want us to judge..."He is without sin may cast the first stone" we are not all gay haters. We love our brothers as Jesus would have loved us for being imperfect flawed humans that we all are. And that is before sexual orientation comes into play If we walk as he did only spreading his words of love and peace and minding our own business then we deserve a mansion. Living according the new testament seems like a pretty awesome way to walk this earth until I can meet Him. Don't judges us by the teachings we believe in. There will never be anything wrong with having Faith and Hope and loving you fellow man.



well spoken I think most would agree, that whether or not you believe in god, the principles you speak of are well worth adhering to. I think some are disputing whether believing in god is a necessary prerequisite to that end. I also don't think that anyone is questioning anyone else' right to believe. I think many are puzzled by it though...

obijan


quality posts: 0 Private Messages obijan
mimosa1 wrote:i am a firm believer that being in denial, is itself the proof that the "problem" exists,. i. e as in our government cover-ups!.....so, how can you deny that GOD exists, if you are disputing that HE does not????!!!!!!



Heresy! It's a SHE.
How dare you insult the invisible pink unicorn like that! May many of your socks be lost in the laundry!

liljackill


quality posts: 0 Private Messages liljackill
marymarauder10 wrote:If you want to believe in an IPU, go right ahead. I'm not going to question your beliefs just like I don't think you have any right to question mine.



Here's the thing. I'm an atheist. While I'm frequently amused by the beliefs of the religious, to each his own. So long as they keep it their own.

My issues with religion stem from it being inflicted on others. I'm personally not a big fan of people's happiness being crushed because religion decided they can't be with the one that they love. I'm not real keen on outlawing a medical procedure based on religion, particularly when there are directions in the religion's texts on how to administer a primitive form of the same. Killing or going to war over ancient texts' decrees isn't really my cup of tea, either.

I'm also really not on board with using fear of eternal punishment to coerce developing children into following one of the most amoral texts ever spread, or into professing their love for a being who says that he'll punish them if they don't.

djphased


quality posts: 0 Private Messages djphased
andybeals wrote:Lack of belief. Or is one of your hobbies "not building roads"?



Not necessarily, while we lack belief, they also label anything other than the major religions, "Paganism." Unusual religions indeed, but most are pretty awesome in their own right. Who wouldn't want to believe in Odin? =P

obijan


quality posts: 0 Private Messages obijan
darkchylde13 wrote:well spoken I think most would agree, that whether or not you believe in god, the principles you speak of are well worth adhering to.



We bring it up, because this is supposedly the "Perfect Word of the Almighty and Infallible God (Tm)". According to your beliefs, the bible cannot be wrong. On anything. The old testament IS part of the bible.

Still with me?
Then look at some of the morals of Jaweh (which is also Jesus and also his father and also not quite) demonstrated in that book.

It promotes incest, mutilation, torture, slavery and genocide. All ordained by Jaweh.

Please provide an explanation of why that would be considered "moral" principles.

Ready.... set... SPIN!



Shinespark


quality posts: 33 Private Messages Shinespark
tonygriffinus wrote:I don't believe in them



Nothing if not succinct.

getwyred


quality posts: 0 Private Messages getwyred

Does not matter to me, everyone is annoying

darkchylde13


quality posts: 1 Private Messages darkchylde13
obijan wrote:We bring it up, because this is supposedly the "Perfect Word of the Almighty and Infallible God (Tm)". According to your beliefs, the bible cannot be wrong. On anything. The old testament IS part of the bible.

Still with me?
Then look at some of the morals of Jaweh (which is also Jesus and also his father and also not quite) demonstrated in that book.

It promotes incest, mutilation, torture, slavery and genocide. All ordained by Jaweh.

Please provide an explanation of why that would be considered "moral" principles.

Ready.... set... SPIN!



Umm...yeah old testament is bad news, I just meant that what he was saying about generally being good to one another is an admirable goal to strive for, and that it is true, you may choose to believe what you wish, but you do not have to believe in god to be good to one another, and many who do believe in god, are not good to one another. Personally I am agnostic, I do not believe in god just because someone says I should, I also do not claim that there is no higher power just because I have not seen it. There are many things that may exist which I have not seen, such as IPU for example...or aliens...or a sane cab driver.