angeblah wrote:Bah. I had just decided that I should get a refurbished Canon SD780 with CHDK.

Now this deal has made me all conflicted :/

Won't be that much different, though with the CHDK you'll get DNGs to work with. The lens may be even slightly sharper due to greater simplicity of it, and will at least be a half-stop faster.

maxngerry wrote:I own this camera and love it - even though I spent $100 more than the woot! price. This is a great price for a great camera - but you need a bigger SD card. Those videos take up alot of room!

BTW, the HD video is great! No need for a camcorder with the Lumix!

I researched this camera long and hard before purchasing it. If I did not already own it, i would snap it up at this price.

You are sooooo wrong....
This Lumix is no replacement for a real camcorder because of the limitations I listed in other posts. For example, the Lumix will stop recording once a video segment reaches 2gb (a bit over 8 mins) even though there is still plenty of room on the SD card. That means most speeches and events (i.e. weddings and graduations) will be interrupted. And because the camera will pause to write the video on to the SD card, you won't be able to continue immediately. In other words, you may miss something important.

Furthermore, you can't pause while recording which means lots of junk footage. What's worse, the Lumix uses the MJPEG codec, which is the least efficient of all contemporary codecs. That results in the memory filling up quickly. Finally, it uses the MOV container, which is not easily edited by Windows users.

On the other hand, a $50 Kodak Zi, Vado or Flip will not have some of these problems. For example, all of those will record as long as there is room in memory. Admittedly, the Zi still uses MOV and none allow pausing while filming. But if you're willing to spend >$100 for a real camcorder, the video mode will be vastly superior to this Lumix. So no, this is not a substitute for a camcorder.

Does anyone know if the low-light picture is better on the ZS6 or the FH20? Also, can the shutter lag be controlled manually for longer exposure? I felt like the FH20 exposure settings were a joke.
I'm contemplating getting this one if the features are even just a tad better.

razorc03 wrote:Does anyone know if the low-light picture is better on the ZS6 or the FH20? Also, can the shutter lag be controlled manually for longer exposure? I felt like the FH20 exposure settings were a joke.
I'm contemplating getting this one if the features are even just a tad better.

Low-light is marginally better than the two you listed.

Shutter lag is a limitation of the hardware, but you can manually set exposure time, up to 60", if you mean that.

How does this compare to the Samsung from Woot several months ago? Both have German lens design and 24mm wide angle. I know about the MOV difference. Anything else?

NightGhost wrote:I do have a question: When you use up the 2GB, does it hiccup (and if so, how badly) while writing the file and then keep on shooting, or do you have to put the camera in motion picture mode again? Or is everything seamless?

I can't speak for the Lumix but other point-and-shoots that I've used will freeze up while it writes everything to SD. Motion JPEG is essentially a continuous series of JPG stills. So a good analogy is the burst mode of many cameras. After shooting in burst mode, the camera must pause to write before allowing another burst.

The end result is that you risk missing something important when the camera "hiccups." This is an issue in many events, i.e. speeches and ceremonies, since most are longer than 8 mins.

kmith wrote:How does this compare to the Samsung from Woot several months ago? Both have German lens design and 24mm wide angle. I know about the MOV difference. Anything else?

If you're referring to the HZ35W, I like it a little better. The UI is slightly more to my liking, and the complaints about the "GPS" are moot to me as I never utilize that feature. The lens may be slightly worse, but when you enter the superzoom category you have to lower expectations.

Shinespark wrote:Low-light is marginally better than the two you listed.

Shutter lag is a limitation of the hardware, but you can manually set exposure time, up to 60", if you mean that.

Right now I'm using a Canon S410 and have been able to capture low light settings with no flash and the exposure setting set to +2 - all the pictures are amazing. When trying the same settings with FH20, all the pictures come out dark and unusable.

Plus, the Canon can goto ISO 50, while the FH20 can go to 80. While at ISO 80 on the FH20, the pictures again came out dark.

That's why I'm wondering if it's worth the upgrade to the ZS6.

Ryan323 wrote:How does this camera do in low light situations? I do photo's for a local band and the majority of their shows are in dark bars/clubs, so that is kind of an important quality in the camera...

When it comes to capturing action (so a slow shutter is not an option) in bars or clubs (so flash, with its disruptiveness, is not an option), you NEED good high-ISO performance. And for that, you NEED a low pixel density sensor. Large-sensor cameras (read: DSLR) are, by far, the best way to go here.

If, for some reason, a DSLR is not an option for you, then you will need a Fujifilm EXR camera (the EXR is a special sensor and pixel layout that makes it possible to effectively halve its pixel density when necessary; conventional sensors can't do this) (e.g., F70EXR, which can be had for a similar price refurbed, if you can find it, a F80EXR, which can be had new for sub-$200, or the F300EXR, which is sub-$240). Here are tips for shooting EXR cameras in concerts/bars/clubs.

So, to answer your question, no, this camera is not well suited for that purpose (in fact, the ZS5/6/7 has a higher pixel density than their ZS3 predecessor--not good).

Strange that both DPreview and imaging-resource.com reviewed both the ZS5 and ZS7 but not the ZS6... but both seem to have favorable reviews.

If you are thinking about purchasing I'd suggest reading both reviews(links above).... good stuff!

razorc03 wrote:Right now I'm using a Canon S410 and have been able to capture low light settings with no flash and the exposure setting set to +2 - all the pictures are amazing. When trying the same settings with FH20, all the pictures come out dark and unusable.

Plus, the Canon can goto ISO 50, while the FH20 can go to 80. While at ISO 80 on the FH20, the pictures again came out dark.

That's why I'm wondering if it's worth the upgrade to the ZS6.

The 410 has a sensor about 40% larger than the 1/2.3" you tend to see these days, so while you get the ability to use higher ISOs, low light is going to suffer as a result of the smaller sensor and cramming more pixels on it.

As for ISOs 80/50, they're usually software-generated and rarely native, so they can often introduce more noise than ISO 100.

ehowland50 wrote:I don't know guys, I have the ZS3 and have recorded a kids play (at school) that went on for more than 20 minutes and it was one clip. I know SD card speed is an issue. Class 2 is not good, and many Class 4 cards are no good. Class 6 or better!

Were you recording in HD? Since the limitation seems to be memory and not time, lower resolutions will record longer before it reaches the 2gb limit. Also does your ZS3 use a different CODEC? This uses MJPEG, which is very inefficient. If your camera uses H.264 compression, you can hold roughly 4x as much video in the same memory, so that may translate to longer time.

The SD class/speed shouldn't affect how much memory the buffer can hold before having to stop. It would affect how fast you can shoot stills, and possibly, whether the videos will drop frames.

kmith wrote:I have Ubuntu Linux. Will it do MOV?

You can play and edit mov files:

Ubuntu Forums: edit .mov (quicktime?) file

Solved: Can't edit T2i MOV files

linuxquestions.org: video editing MOV files

So are these factory refurbished by Panasonic?
Or by Billy Bob in his El Paso garage?

rhjaisingh wrote:Guys, do you know whether they can get this to me by 12/17 ? With absolute certainty ?
Thx.

I wouldn't count on it. Usually takes 5 - 10 business days to get stuff from Woot for me.

Shinespark wrote:Won't be that much different, though with the CHDK you'll get DNGs to work with. The lens may be even slightly sharper due to greater simplicity of it, and will at least be a half-stop faster.

Thanks for this--looks like I should pass on the ZS6.

ehowland50 wrote:I don't know guys, I have the ZS3 and have recorded a kids play (at school) that went on for more than 20 minutes and it was one clip. I know SD card speed is an issue. Class 2 is not good, and many Class 4 cards are no good. Class 6 or better!

Compacts rarely record at 720 over 9-12mbps so the 48mbps card or bust thing is definitely a bit overblown.

kmith wrote:How does this compare to the Samsung from Woot several months ago? Both have German lens design and 24mm wide angle. I know about the MOV difference. Anything else?

I can't speak from experience, but both seem comparable on paper. Two other notable improvement in the Samsung are:

1) The Samsung uses Optical and Digital Stabilization while this Lumix only has Optical Stabilization. Samsung claims that combining the two modes produces superior stills and videos.

2) Not only is there a container difference (Lumix=MOV; Samsung=AVI), but the CODEC is also different. The Lumix uses MJPEG compression while Samsung uses H.264. The Samsung can then hold roughly 4x as much video in the same amount of memory using the same resolution and frame rate.

BUT ... video limitations aside, Panasonics have a large lead in user satisfaction. So while the Samsung make better videos, the Panasonics may provide a better user experience overall.

sdc100 wrote:I can't speak from experience, but both seem comparable on paper. Two other notable improvement in the Samsung are:

1) The Samsung uses Optical and Digital Stabilization while this Lumix only has Optical Stabilization. Samsung claims that combining the two modes produces superior stills and videos.

2) Not only is there a container difference (Lumix=MOV; Samsung=AVI), but the CODEC is also different. The Lumix uses MJPEG compression while Samsung uses H.264. The Samsung can then hold roughly 4x as much video in the same amount of memory using the same resolution and frame rate.

BUT ... video limitations aside, Panasonics have a large lead in user satisfaction. So while the Samsung make better videos, the Panasonics may provide a better user experience overall.

In general, you only get the electronic IS on Samsung compacts when you put it in the "DIS" scene mode.

jkollin wrote:So are these factory refurbished by Panasonic?
Or by Billy Bob in his El Paso garage?

You should avoid buying electronics from Billy Bob. His chili dogs are great, though.

Shinespark wrote:The 410 has a sensor about 40% larger than the 1/2.3" you tend to see these days, so while you get the ability to use higher ISOs, low light is going to suffer as a result of the smaller sensor and cramming more pixels on it.

*disagrees* While that is true when comparing cameras of the same or similar generation, the S410 is nearly 7 years old. It has much lower pixel density, but sensors from that era are junk compared to today's sensors, so I would be surprised if its ISO 400 is much better than the ISO 400 of this Panasonic, despite its massive density advantage. And low light performance is ALL about the usability and quality of the higher ISOs; a noisy 1600 on this Panasonic is infinitely better than a *non-existent* 1600 on the S410.

Now, if you are referring to the type of low-light photography where you have a tripod, then that's a different story. Then, you can extend the exposure time as long as necessary and kick the ISO all the way down to 100--you're not going to find that much difference between cameras when you do that. What matters is the tripodless, flashless low-light, in which all you have at your disposal is the ISO sensitivity, and THAT is where the pixel density comes into play: high-density sensors produce noisy crap at high ISOs. And since the S410 doesn't even go above 400 (without a tripod or flash, in truly low-light situations, I need 1600; 400 is more appropriate for dusk), the noise from pixel density at high ISO is completely moot.

kliu0x52 wrote:*disagrees* While that is true when comparing cameras of the same or similar generation, the S410 is nearly 7 years old. It has much lower pixel density, but sensors from that era are junk compared to today's sensors, so I would be surprised if its ISO 400 is much better than the ISO 400 of this Panasonic, despite its massive density advantage. And low light performance is ALL about the usability and quality of the higher ISOs; a noisy 1600 on this Panasonic is infinitely better than a *non-existent* 1600 on the S410.

Now, if you are referring to the type of low-light photography where you have a tripod, then that's a different story. Then, you can extend the exposure time as long as necessary and kick the ISO all the way down to 100--you're not going to find that much difference between cameras when you do that. What matters is the tripodless, flashless low-light, in which all you have at your disposal is the ISO sensitivity, and THAT is where the pixel density comes into play: high-density sensors produce noisy crap at high ISOs. And since the S410 doesn't even go above 400 (without a tripod or flash, in truly low-light situations, I need 1600; 400 is more appropriate for dusk), the noise from pixel density at high ISO is completely moot.

Indeed, memory does not serve: I confused his with the 06' compacts which could actually use ISO 800 and the CDHK.

NightGhost wrote:You can play and edit mov files:

Thanks. I will try Linux Avidemux when my new ZS6 gets here.

rhjaisingh wrote:Guys, do you know whether they can get this to me by 12/17 ? With absolute certainty ?
Thx.

Absolutely not. If you get it before Xmas you're lucky.

Sales tax makes this not a deal. wootazon sucks ass.

I've owned the ZS3 model for about a year now and I love it. The 12x zooming comes in really handy.

I also like that I can tell it to focus on something and it'll stay focused on it, kind of like the face detection. I was trying to take a picture of a flower once, but because of the wind blowing it, it was focusing on the grass behind the flower instead. So I pointed the cross-hair on the flower told it to focus on that. And just like face detection it started following the flower. Pretty nice!

I uploaded it here too if you want to see:
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/8996/flowersw.jpg

bigfatbass wrote:Sales tax makes this not a deal. wootazon sucks ass.

I don't know your sales tax rate, but if it's 8%, that's $12 tax, which you can effectively knock down to $7 with the code "TAXSUCKS".

I had an older model Lumix camera (DMC-TZ1 w/10x zoom) for a short time. Gave it to my son when I bought a Canon G10. I miss the Lumix. I would imagine this is similar, if not even more of an improvement on what I had. I'm in for one!

Samples from my older Lumix...

Concert Photos

If you get/have this camera and decide to buy a battery for it for any reason, be VERY careful! The camera is very picky. I have seen it reject ORIGINAL Panasonic batteries that were the exact model the camera comes with.

If the store lets you, try before you buy (the battery should have a partial charge straight from the package), and if the camera doesn't display an error message within 30 seconds of turning on, you're good to go.

kliu0x52 wrote:*disagrees* While that is true when comparing cameras of the same or similar generation, the S410 is nearly 7 years old. It has much lower pixel density, but sensors from that era are junk compared to today's sensors, so I would be surprised if its ISO 400 is much better than the ISO 400 of this Panasonic, despite its massive density advantage. And low light performance is ALL about the usability and quality of the higher ISOs; a noisy 1600 on this Panasonic is infinitely better than a *non-existent* 1600 on the S410.

Now, if you are referring to the type of low-light photography where you have a tripod, then that's a different story. Then, you can extend the exposure time as long as necessary and kick the ISO all the way down to 100--you're not going to find that much difference between cameras when you do that. What matters is the tripodless, flashless low-light, in which all you have at your disposal is the ISO sensitivity, and THAT is where the pixel density comes into play: high-density sensors produce noisy crap at high ISOs. And since the S410 doesn't even go above 400 (without a tripod or flash, in truly low-light situations, I need 1600; 400 is more appropriate for dusk), the noise from pixel density at high ISO is completely moot.

I'm not sure if the low-light sensors are junk on the S410. I just did a comparison between the S410 and the FH20.
Settings on both: ISO 100, EXP +2

Clearly, the Canon S410 was able to draw in more light in the low-light setting. Again, nothing was altered, same light setting and same settings on both camera

S410 Image

FH20 Image <-- I promise I did not turn the lights off, so yeah it's that bad.

So my original question again - will the ZS6 improve this issue? Is it worth the upgrade?

Recently got this at Costco for $246 (after tax) with a 2 year (Amex) warranty but am tempted to return for this cheaper Woot! price. Heck this Woot! offering comes with the same 2 gb SD card and case that Costco provides. Thinking that these may be Costco returns.

Fairly satisfied with this camera but the battery life plain sucks.

abhinavsharma wrote:Any idea on how long it will take to get the camera once ordered?

5 days for tracking number and shipping time from Texas. To California Fedex ground around 6-7 days. Smartpost can take up to 10 days. The auto emergency tools I ordered on the 1st got here today I Imagine it's longer to the Northeast. My friend in Washington says it's about same as California.

All depends on how busy they are. After woot-offs can take longer.

I've got the ZS-1 and I love love LOVE this camera. If I didn't already have the one I've got, I would buy this in a heartbeat.

...And I am VERY particular about my electronics.

I probably shopped for 2 months before I decided on the ZS-1.

BTW I bought mine for @$200. so this is a STEAL!

If you're even considering this... Buy it. I guarantee, you won't be disappointed.

Great camera for normal everyday use. My mom has one and she convinced me to get one, they take such great pictures compared to the old Kodak I used to have. No blur or anything.

Shinespark wrote:In general, you only get the electronic IS on Samsung compacts when you put it in the "DIS" scene mode.

That's because most Samsungs, like most point-and-shoots, only have digital stabilization. But the model in question is higher end, and has both Optical and Digital Stabilization. According to its description, you can combine the modes for superior images. There is no reason why the two modes would be mutually exclusive since Optical Stabilization is mechanical while Digital Stabilization is electronic (by changing ISO, shutter speed, etc). In general, you'd want Optical Stabilization to be the default because Digital Stabilization adds noise. But there may be times where you'd want to use both, i.e. high shake in bright light where noise wouldn't be so noticeable.

cheroke55 wrote:Absolutely not. If you get it before Xmas you're lucky.

You back this up how? The FH20 sold here on the 5th arrived in California on the 10th! Both are/were listed as "ground" not smartpost.

kmith wrote:Thanks. I will try Linux Avidemux when my new ZS6 gets here.

Avidemux is my free editor of choice (in WIndows 7) because it does conversions pretty well and it's relatively fast. It also has lots of good filters. Unfortunately, it's a horrible editor. While you can delete segments, cutting and pasting is very buggy. And concantenating multiple videos is not possible until you convert and save them to the same size (which is tedious and degrades the videos). Better programs will automatically resize or add black bars, but not Avidemux. Certain combination of transforms can also cause crashes. Adding outside audio tracks is possible but rarely works.

WARNING: Although the camera is covered by a 90 day warranty, all accessories (batteries, charging cable, Outlet charger) are not. I bought a camera at sellout and the camera worked fine until it was time to recharge the battery. The battery never recharged with the included charging cable. I called CS and was told that referbs don't have accessory warranty and I was given a number to an "independent" 3rd party dealer to buy a new charger ($50). I will only buy refurb cameras from Woot if I already have a charger for it from another camera.

does anyone know which camera it is on this list, i could not find the model.
http://www.flickr.com/cameras/panasonic/#models

bigfatbass wrote:Sales tax makes this not a deal. wootazon sucks ass.

Don't blame Amazon or Woot; blame New York. See details below. I re-post it every time someone complains about Woot charging tax. And don't forget that taxpayers have a $5 coupon: "TAXSUCKS." On cheaper items, where the tax is less than $5, we taxpayers actually end up paying LESS than Wooters who don't have to pay tax. I will agree, however, that on expensive items like laptops, the tax often make the Woot not the best offer online.

============

FOR THOSE PAYING SALES TAX

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WOOT HAS OFFERED A SOLUTION. All sales tax-paying Wooters can use the coupon code "TAXSUCKS" for a $5 refund (to offset s/h) when the total is $40 or more. Texas residents have been using it for years, The good news is that YOU CAN ACTUALLY COME OUT AHEAD of non-sales-tax payers. For example, I recently bought the photo scanner for $39.99. Living in NYC, I was charged $3.55 in sales tax. "TAXSUCKS" gave me a refund of $5. That means that I actually received a $1.45 discount over those don't have to pay sales tax! Yea Woot!

The bad news is that 1) If the item is expensive, the sales tax will be way more than the $5 Woot is refunding. 2) You can only use one coupon per order, so if you are using one of Woot's promotional codes, i.e. "SERENDIPITY," you cannot also use "TAXSUCKS."

Regardless, IT'S NOT WOOT OR AMAZON'S FAULT, and Amazon is suing NY to prevent other states from passing similar laws. Furthermore, I thank Woot for offering the $5 refund.

=====
From my receipt:

which each cost $39.99
for a subtotal of $39.99
plus tax + $3.55
plus shipping + $5.00
minus discount - $5.00
for a total of $43.54