sdc100


quality posts: 503 Private Messages sdc100
clintone wrote:I'm not picking on this wooter, but the comment illustrates a concern I have when I see medical items, even something relatively benign as a TENS, sold to the general public. Any chiropractor, PT, or medical doctor worth their salt isn't replaceable with something like this. The healthcare provider not only serves to administer therapy and treatment but also to monitor progress and to determine the root cause of the problem. This comparison of the TENS being more cost effective than the chiropractor is not much different than rationalizing that an aspirin is cheaper than going to the doctor. Sure, it may just be a headache, but it could also be a tumor, an impending stroke, etc.

I'm not trying to be a naysayer about the TENS, but it shouldn't be perceived as an alternative to seeking professional care.

As an aside-for those who are getting hit up to buy a $450 unit, whether by a PT, DC, MD, etc.-don't. Oftentimes it's a dramatic mark up to get maximum reimbursement from insurance. An average run of the mill TENS does not approach those amounts at wholesale.



That's because those $450 units are real TENS machines. On the other hand, these are made by companies that have neither tested their units in clinical trials nor submitted their results to the FDA, etc. After having tested 15+ of these fake TENS/EMS machines from various companies, I can tell you they don't have the tolerances reserved for medical devices. For example, a 5 intensity (amplitude) on one unit is different from the 5 on another -- even though it's the same model from the same company. The same goes for frequency. You can plainly see this on an oscilloscope. The quality assurance simply isn't there. Worse, not one of the units I tested had any instructions on how to vary the intensity or frequency to provide an effective nerve block. Basically, they say to just play around with the settings. That's not TENS and that's not medicine.

criswootwoot


quality posts: 0 Private Messages criswootwoot

How can I order 2, send one to me, and one to someone else?

I tried to do 2 orders, but the ordering system stated:

Your account has already purchased this sale.
Your shipping address has changed. Please re-enter your credit card information.

jimtpat


quality posts: 1 Private Messages jimtpat

I might be missing something here. I figure this could be good for massaging that area of your back that you can't reach and no one else is around to help.

But then, if no one else is around to help, how do you get it to the right spot that you can't reach?

I bet I coulda used this back in my middle school years to break the local detention record.

azdarkknight


quality posts: 5 Private Messages azdarkknight
haku wrote:marry me Thunder Thighs and make me a happy man.



I think she is waiting to see how many of these units you order first..... ;)

azdarkknight


quality posts: 5 Private Messages azdarkknight
criswootwoot wrote:How can I order 2, send one to me, and one to someone else?

I tried to do 2 orders, but the ordering system stated:

Your account has already purchased this sale.
Your shipping address has changed. Please re-enter your credit card information.



Have two accounts, say you and your "sister or brother" ;)
You will ofc have to pay $5 shipping on each, but I guess you knew that anyway wanting deliveries to two diff addresses.

clintone


quality posts: 12 Private Messages clintone
sdc100 wrote:That's because those $450 units are real TENS machines. On the other hand, these are made by companies that have neither tested their units in clinical trials nor submitted their results to the FDA, etc. After having tested 15+ of these fake TENS/EMS machines from various companies, I can tell you they don't have the tolerances reserved for medical devices. For example, a 5 intensity (amplitude) on one unit is different from the 5 on another -- even though it's the same model from the same company. The same goes for frequency. You can plainly see this on an oscilloscope. The quality assurance simply isn't there. Worse, not one of the units I tested had any instructions on how to vary the intensity or frequency to provide an effective nerve block. Basically, they say to just play around with the settings. That's not TENS and that's not medicine.



I can speak from personal experience. I purchased TENS units direct from medical supply companies and they were nowhere near the $450 another poster mentioned. And these were honest to goodness medical grade, sold only to healthcare providers TENS units. However, practice management firms will advise the practitioner to bill insurance at the inflated rate because the reimbursement allows for it. Same held true for many things sold through the office. Cost to the doctor was one thing. The recommended retail price was entirely different.

sdc100


quality posts: 503 Private Messages sdc100
deecee73 wrote:I rarely make a comment but do read these b/c people have such a great sense of humor around here. However I have to respond to the quote of the "doctor" who disparages Eastern medicine:

Another clown of a western doctor to frown upon Chinese medicine. Acupuncture/acupressure works and that is proven. It has even been used in complement with Western medicine (e.g. to kill pain for open heart surgery - performed with no other anesthesia).

I spent years in pain, getting massages, taking muscle relaxants and suffering after getting hit at a stop light by a sleepy driver who ran a red light. About 8 years later I traveled to see a master acupuncturist from China who used a plug-in unit of these and needles. Within three visits she had fixed me 99%. That was maybe six or seven years ago and I have only been back maybe once or twice for back pain since then. In that time I have sent many friends and co-workers to see this woman and she has fixed problems that Western doctors insisted needed painful surgery (for knees, foot operations, etc.) when all they needed was for the body to heal itself.

Clowns like the doctor that wrote of the "unproven theory" need to be taken out back and...

The guy who recommended the acupuncturist in question (and I have seen a couple different ones, but there is only one master that I have met) was mangled in a motor vehicle accident and was to have his leg amputated. The doctors left it attached and the man dragged this leg around for years. He developed horrible back pain that his chiropractor and drugs could address. Within one visit the acupuncturist in question had unfrozen the man's ankle and his swollen foot had shrunk back to a normal size (he had to wear different-sized shoes for years).

Just as with Western medicine there are competent and incompetent doctors, the same goes with Eastern medicine. You have to do your homework. Ironically, a Western doctor (very good) at a doc-in-the-box clinic suggested I get one of these types of units about 14 years ago when I was hit by that driver. My insurance didn't want to pay the $750 (understandably) so I returned the unit. At this price I can finally afford one for myself. : D



Proven? Hardly. I've actually studied TCM,and my mother is a practitioner. You can see my writings on this in another Woot. Just search for my name and "acupuncture." If you think it's proven, provide me the peer-reviewed studies. As The Skeptical Inquirer pointed out, all the positive studies involves PSYCHOLOGICAL states such as stress and pain -- things easily influenced by the PLACEBO EFFECT. There is NO EFFECT in quantifiable things like morbidity, mortality, tumor size, healing rate, etc. If you disagree, show me a peer-reviewed study in a reputable journal.

FYI, I spent two years in Columbia University's Department of Biostatistics where about 70-80% of the graduate students were from China. They told me that once modern statistical scrutiny is applied to TCM, much of it falls apart.

Your claim of acupuncture as the sole analgesic for heart surgery is a myth. It stems from the misquoting of a report by NY Times reporter James Reston when visiting Maoist China. It was claimed (and much publicized by the Chinese) that his appendectomy was performed with nothing more that acupuncture for analgesia. Wrong. What he actually wrote was that acupuncture was used after "a normal injection of Xylocain and Benzocain, which anesthetized the middle of my body." Yes, they do sometimes only use acupuncture for childbirth, but Lamaze, which is a purely psychological technique, is just as effective.

Frankly, while your experiences are interesting,they are anecdotal, which is unreliable in research. Show me well-designed peer-reviewed studies showing its efficacy. Give me epidemiological studies showing that those using the modality have a better outcome en masse than those who don't. Show me proof that acupuncture has been used successfully and repeatedly as the sole analgesia in open heart surgery. Give me the references.

You might want to read this well-researched article:
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/acupuncture-anesthesia-a-proclamation-of-chairman-mao-part-i/

lutopia


quality posts: 0 Private Messages lutopia

I'm in for one. Thanks Woot!!! This will really come in handy, but, a Barrel of Crops would be nice too.

Recent Purchases3/23/2007 Screaming Monkey with Green Woot Cape 3
3/23/2007 Random scaffolding3/23/2007 iRiver H10 20GB MP3 Player & Recorder - Remix Blue3/23/2007 Logitech mm28 Flat Panel Portable Speakers3/22/2007 Microsoft Laser Mouse 60003/17/2007 Ultrex Flash Fryer3/16/2007 Excalibur Emergency Roadside Kit3/9/2007 Netgear Wireless Range Extender Kit[/i][color=blue]Utopia[/color]

sdc100


quality posts: 503 Private Messages sdc100
criswootwoot wrote:How can I order 2, send one to me, and one to someone else?

I tried to do 2 orders, but the ordering system stated:

Your account has already purchased this sale.
Your shipping address has changed. Please re-enter your credit card information.



You can't have separate addresses since Woot is only charging you one $5 fee for shipping. You can try emailing servce@woot.com and see if an exception can be made in your case. The easiest solution is to create a separate account using a different credit card and make another order.

cyndibranam


quality posts: 0 Private Messages cyndibranam

I cant seem to find how many mA it is.

sdc100


quality posts: 503 Private Messages sdc100
notaguru wrote:If you examine all the photos, you'll see that it has several location-specific settings. One button is clearly labeled JOINT.

Eliminates the guesswork.



Yeah, and one is labeled "REPEATE." And one one of the other units I tested had a button for "SLIM." The Chinese instruction said something about losing weight. My point is that generally-speaking, the buttons are programmed with arbitrary patterns that have no proven correlation to the body site targeted. There is certainly no such method in TENS, which this unit claims to be based on. So what exactly was Prospera relying on when they programmed those buttons?

sdc100


quality posts: 503 Private Messages sdc100
cyndibranam wrote:I cant seem to find how many mA it is.



Out of the 15+ fake-TENS units we tested, not one of them provided any specs -- like a real TENS devices would. All true medical devices are tested within strict tolerances for accuracy, and the results are listed. The fact that specs aren't available should tell you how reliable these Prosperas are.

sdc100


quality posts: 503 Private Messages sdc100
bearxox wrote:They should have mentioned if you have a pacemaker, this item can kill you.

The Prosepra Electronic Pulse Massager features Transcutaneous Electrical Nerve Stimulation (TENS) that can help back and neck pain caused by trauma or strain.

WARNING: Electrical stimulation devices should not be used by persons using a cardiac pacemaker who are pregnant have a malignancy or have any conditions where circulation is impaired.



Not only that but people with diabetes and/or neuropathy should be cautious as well. And although they claim that it can help with neck pain. I wouldn't recommended it. It can cause an ischemic stroke by compressing the carotid artery which supplies blood to the brain. It can also cause the throat to contract, resulting in choking. In terms of the heart, even healthy people should avoid creating a cross-circuit with the heart in between, i.e. don't put an electrode on the back and the chest simultaneously. All true TENS and EMS units will include these warnings.

sdc100


quality posts: 503 Private Messages sdc100
hehthuryo wrote:Wow. If you all could only see the possibilities I am considering for this in my mind...



My initial research was in sexuality so I can verify that whatever you're speculating, it probably already exists. Seriously. I saw one device where the pads were placed on the gluteals while an electrified probe was... well, use your imagination. For those who are wondering, all TENS and EMS units have a warning not to place the pads on or near the genitals.

doodude


quality posts: 3 Private Messages doodude

As a fella with a herniated disc in my neck, a ruptured disc in my lower lumbar & various points of tendinitis, just the thought that this "might" bring some relief makes me feel better.

In for at least one...

sdc100


quality posts: 503 Private Messages sdc100
rossrr wrote:In for one! Cheaper than a trip to the chiropractor. If it works great for a few weeks, months or years.. I have saved money!



I'm not a believer of chiropractics, but I will say one thing. Chiropractors claim to cure illnesses, not merely relieve symptoms. TENS does not heal. It merely relieves the symptoms. So if there are any underlying problems, not even a medical grade TENS unit will help. In some ways, suppressing pain can be harmful if you didn't first find out what the underlying cause is, i.e. a tumor. In other words, this is no replacement for seeing a physician or even a chiropractor.

doodude


quality posts: 3 Private Messages doodude
sdc100 wrote:My initial research was in sexuality so I can verify that whatever you're speculating, it probably already exists. Seriously. I saw one device where the pads were placed on the gluteals while an electrified probe was... well, use your imagination. For those who are wondering, all TENS and EMS units have a warning not to place the pads on or near the genitals.



This falls under "Rule 34"...

breaddrink


quality posts: 20 Private Messages breaddrink

My physical therapist used a unit on my neck and back that was for all tense a purposes the same.

It worked amazingly for me, but he did say it wasn't for everyone, and it really varies based on your pain thresholds. I was allowed to control the voltage myself and adjust it as needed over the course of 30 or so minutes.

What I found was, the longer you have one on for, the more voltage you can use and can 'take' without it being painful, and the more work the session does to the pained areas.
It's rather hard to imagine a battery powered one working effectively for larger muscle groups.

Anyone have any real time experience with this compared to larger units? I'm very tempted.

Bollocks to it. In for 1.

breaddrink


quality posts: 20 Private Messages breaddrink
Truelyscrumptious wrote:All I can say is WOW! It relieved enough pain after one sesion that I was able to bend over again.



While it's your honesty that I admire the most, the lack of shame is the icing on the cake.

iguana71


quality posts: 4 Private Messages iguana71

Wow. This item really seems to irk someone here since it's taking away potential customers (affecting him directly or indirectly) who don't want to pay exorbitant fees for medical service add-ons that medical providers (probably PT in this case) make huge margins on. (i.e. insurance billable office TENS treatments and/or medical office sales of consumer grade TENS devices at 2000% markup) for services that can be done just as effectively at home.

Note how he comments on how this device is useless in one post yet claims one needs to heed the warnings of "real" TENS units when using this device in another. Too funny! lol

In for one.

sdc100


quality posts: 503 Private Messages sdc100
deecee73 wrote:
Another clown of a western doctor to frown upon Chinese medicine. Acupuncture/acupressure works and that is proven. It has even been used in complement with Western medicine (e.g. to kill pain for open heart surgery - performed with no other anesthesia).



If acupuncture, acupressure, reflexology, moxibustion, etc work, explain the lack of effect on amputees, whose internal organs have no apparent harm from the amputation. If those techniques are valid, wouldn't cutting off a limb affect the organs connected to the points located on the amputated limb? And wouldn't someone who jog (constant shocks to the sole) have a different organ profile than someone who doesn't?

In case you doubt my knowledge of TCM and acupressure, I watch a Hong Kong-based show every Tuesday on the topic on the TVB channel. I also occasionally watch the Chinese-produced show Preserving Health (weekdays 7:30p). All pretty laughable stuff. And if you want an even bigger laugh, get a Traditional Chinese Medical text on AIDS ... learn how AIDS is created when two Yangs trap their "ministerial fire" within each other. In other words, there is no infectious agent, i.e. HIV. Rather, the illness spontaneously arises because two men have trapped heat. What a sad sad sad homophobic joke.

worldwidewebfeet


quality posts: 33 Private Messages worldwidewebfeet

This is not a good idea Woot. Many Wooters (who don't read)might confuse this with their Ipod and place the pads in their ears!!

sdc100


quality posts: 503 Private Messages sdc100
iguana71 wrote:Wow. This item really seems to irk someone here since it's taking away potential customers (affecting him directly or indirectly) who don't want to pay exorbitant fees for medical service add-ons that medical providers (probably PT in this case) make huge margins on. (i.e. insurance billable office TENS treatments and/or medical office sales of consumer grade TENS devices at 2000% markup) for services that can be done just as effectively at home.

Note how he comments on how this device is useless in one post yet claims one needs to heed the warnings of "real" TENS units when using this device in another. Too funny! lol

In for one.



First off, I'm a researcher so I make no money off insurance, directly or indirectly. All patients are research subjects, therefore not billed. And in some studies, we even pay the patients. It's sad that you choose to guess at motives rather than look at the actual points of my comments.

Second, learn to read more carefully and to think logically. I said that they were useless for the claims made by the manufacturer. How does that mean that it can't do harm? How are the two connected, or mutually exclusive? Read carefully. I never said that these can't cause contractions. In fact, I said that if it did cause contractions, it's not a TENS unit. And if it did cause contractions, then you need to heed the warnings of any device that causes contractions, regardless of whether it had clinical efficacy. Here's a summary for you: Whether something is efficacious has no bearing on whether it can cause harm.

tpatrick878


quality posts: 0 Private Messages tpatrick878

Do you have a link to the website that you get your pads at?

isaaccool23


quality posts: 0 Private Messages isaaccool23

If you have ever used a "TENs", unit you already know that this is a dumbed down version of what is normally used by licensed practitioners of physical therapy or other prescribed experts. If you don't read the fine print and your heart suddenly goes into arithmia or your brain starts to siezure out of control then you have made a great purchase that you will most likely use to torture your less popular pets with. And to the person that says "you know where this will be used", go for it! this is no umbrella!!! think high school bioligy and jumping frogs. Chow

sdc100


quality posts: 503 Private Messages sdc100
tpatrick878 wrote:Do you have a link to the website that you get your pads at?



You can find replacement pads on Amazon. Lokk under the Related Items heading,

http://www.amazon.com/Prospera-Corporation-PL009-Electronic-Massager/dp/B000XHNBLU

You can also find them on ebay but for some reason, Amazon usually has the best deals for these pads.

Here are current eBay offerings:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5466.m570.l1313&_nkw=prospera+pads&_sacat=See-All-Categories

Unfortuantely, Prospera's replacement pads are more expensive than those for other fake-TENS units. That's because the pads include wiring and connectors. Most other units use a pad and a button connector but no wires,

whatsamattaU


quality posts: 1069 Private Messages whatsamattaU
sdc100 wrote:First off, I'm a researcher so I make no money off insurance, directly or indirectly. All patients are research subjects, therefore not billed. And in some studies, we even pay the patients. It's sad that you choose to guess at motives rather than look at the actual points of my comments.

Second, learn to read more carefully and to think logically. I said that they were useless for the claims made by the manufacturer. How does that mean that it can't do harm? How are the two connected, or mutually exclusive? Read carefully. I never said that these can't cause contractions. In fact, I said that if it did cause contractions, it's not a TENS unit. And if it did cause contractions, then you need to heed the warnings of any device that causes contractions, regardless of whether it had clinical efficacy. Here's a summary for you: Whether something is efficacious has no bearing on whether it can cause harm.



Quick break, stuck my head into the forum. You're having fun tonight. I'm now second-guessing coming up with the positive reviews, but people said what they did. I agree that not everyone is going to agree on everything, but the civility here (basically the internet in general) needs work when disagreeing.

Thank you for what you're supplying with your expertise and your efforts. It helps the discussion. Back to work.

pr0gr4m


quality posts: 0 Private Messages pr0gr4m

I, for one, thank the maker that someone like sdc100 is here. I so much wanted to refute some of the claims made here but just don't have the proper knowledge and vocabulary to say anything other than "your dumb" in response to them. So thank you sdc100 and keep up the good work.

In for one just to see what the buzz is about.

neohemp


quality posts: 1 Private Messages neohemp
jimtpat wrote:I might be missing something here. I figure this could be good for massaging that area of your back that you can't reach and no one else is around to help.

But then, if no one else is around to help, how do you get it to the right spot that you can't reach?

I bet I coulda used this back in my middle school years to break the local detention record.



I'm pretty obsese and I could probably get these to any point on my back, including my spine (which I would never put this on) so if you can't reach somewhere on your back you probably have bigger problems than this can cure. Do you wash with a washcloth on a stick?

greyday


quality posts: 52 Private Messages greyday

Just to weigh in as the child of a medical family who lives in a hippy town (and avoids both equally):

Anyone who thinks you can cure cancer with meditation is likely to die young.

The same with prayer, in case any churchgoers are laughing at the new agers.

Doctors used to prescribe cocaine regularly and medical science felt LSD would be a nifty painkiller.

I am a huge advocate for science. But I'm a bigger advocate for the scientific method, which I find most doctors don't adhere to (including my father and sister).

Just remember that twenty years ago doctors laughed at echinacea, now they encourage taking it.

iguana71


quality posts: 4 Private Messages iguana71
pr0gr4m wrote:I, for one, thank the maker that someone like sdc100 is here. I so much wanted to refute some of the claims made here but just don't have the proper knowledge and vocabulary to say anything other than "your dumb" in response to them. So thank you sdc100 and keep up the good work.

In for one just to see what the buzz is about.


You are a master of sarcasm...I think?

tdunn


quality posts: 0 Private Messages tdunn

Don't buy replacement pads @ $16-$18. Just go in for 3 today! Just as much to buy the unit with 4 pads then buying replacement pads.

rjpear


quality posts: 0 Private Messages rjpear
carbonium wrote:

WOOT, Your sale of this item is most likely breaking Federal Law and could be subject to prosecution.

"Federal Law (U.S.) restricts the sale of these devices to or by the order of a physician. In accordance....blah blah blah...."



Wow.. I was on the fence.. but since it's illegal..it must work..

That sold me.. In for 3!!

ArtWorksMetal


quality posts: 5 Private Messages ArtWorksMetal
clintone wrote:I'm not picking on this wooter, but the comment illustrates a concern I have when I see medical items, even something relatively benign as a TENS, sold to the general public...



Kind of like Lowe's selling electrical wire, switches, outlets, and conduit to anyone that walks in the store.
Use at your own risk.

Asceticism is for those that can't afford Hedonism.

supercheapwebhosting


quality posts: 0 Private Messages supercheapwebhosting

I was looking up prices for replacement pads, and found a set of 4 that look like they should work for under 10 dollars with shipping

http://www.scriphessco.com/products/scrip-reusable-electrodes/672-0010/?sourcecode=SAZN

I do not know if they will work but they look like the same type of connectors?

Im going to pull the trigger on this woot!
If anyone knows if the pads i found will work let me/us know so when i need new ones well have a cheap place to buy, looks like they had some oval and circular ones as well.

ducatiss


quality posts: 1 Private Messages ducatiss
Tiahaar wrote:from the manual: Do not use the device around the heart, on the head, mouth, pudendum or blemished
skin areas.

homework: look up 'pudendum' XD



yep...just cost woot about a hundred sales there smart guy lol

ArtWorksMetal


quality posts: 5 Private Messages ArtWorksMetal
sdc100 wrote:Not only that but people with diabetes and/or neuropathy should be cautious as well. And although they claim that it can help with neck pain. I wouldn't recommended it. It can cause an ischemic stroke by compressing the carotid artery which supplies blood to the brain. It can also cause the throat to contract, resulting in choking. In terms of the heart, even healthy people should avoid creating a cross-circuit with the heart in between, i.e. don't put an electrode on the back and the chest simultaneously. All true TENS and EMS units will include these warnings.



I have diabetes. I've had a heart attack. I also like the idea of ESP (Electrical Stimulation of Pudenda).
In for 1.
I also believe in the Scientific Method. If this thing kills me, I'll report back.

Asceticism is for those that can't afford Hedonism.

57ryk3r


quality posts: 2 Private Messages 57ryk3r

These are pretty sick, demo-ed one before I ran the Marine Corps Marathon last year in DC. They were quite a bit more expensive there too. I think I am going to get 2 at this price.

leggs1959


quality posts: 0 Private Messages leggs1959

TENS units are great! They've been a part of my treatment at the chiropractor and in physical therapy sessions. If you have muscle tension and have never experienced TENS , I suggest buying one. Twenty minutes use will loosen up any tension that you might have and will give relief to sore aching muscles.

JirafaBo


quality posts: 2 Private Messages JirafaBo

Our trainer in college swore by these. While they seemed to help with sore muscles, the best part of a TENS device is yanking only one of the pads off one of your teammate while they are relaxing.... it's SHOCKING!