gds wrote:Obviously you've never handled these old Accoustimass speakers and you've never measured their frequency response. I still own my Accoustimass set from 1993 and am not a Bose fan-boy but I will give a faithful description of them.
Giving the satellite cubes a knuckle rap test shows that they are very solidly built, having very good heft and weight, very dense. The fabric and other materials are all high quality. For the wires they do use spring clips, but again, these are more industrial strength than what is used on cheaper speakers (also after almost 20yrs of abuse, mine are still holding on strong).
The speaker wires that came with the system are tinned on the ends. This shows the extra care and attention-to-detail that you are paying for with Bose.
This system does not have a 'subwoofer,' it has a bass module. Measuring with a standard SPL meter, 45hz is only 2db down from a testing volume of 85db (that's pretty good bass, it follows very closely with my JBL Studio S312's which have 12"woofers). Below 45hz, it falls off sharply.
The sound produced by the Bose are not very accurate but they do sound very good. I would say that they have the same effect as a tube amplifier. These speakers can make poor recordings sound good, but on the other hand, great recordings will still only sound good, not great.

You are quite correct in that I have never owned or personally tested a Bose 5.1 system. And if yours perform as well as you say they do, then I am pleased for you -- and more importantly, if you are as happy with your purchase all these years later as you appear to be, then of course more power to you. And more power to all those who are happy with their Bose purchases.

I can only go by what I have read countless times in the audio press from the time that these systems first came out: that Bose components are made from shoddy materials (LDF instead of MDF in the bass cabinet; thin plastic in the satellites) and that their frequency response is far from flat (+- 10 or more dB variance across the range; a large gap in the midrange between the bass and treble). I have never read a favorable review of a Bose 5.1 system before your comment here.

gds wrote:The bass module doesn't handle 500hz, the satellites do.
The frequency of 6.3khz is 2db down from a testing volume of 85db. Above 6.3khz, it falls off sharply. At 12khz, it is 20db down from the testing volume (same as with the bass, this treble also follows my JBL's closely).

You are completely correct about the bass module response; my previous recollection was way off. 2dB down at 46 Hz seems representative for these systems, and is certainly more than adequate for good quality bass response. (One design point that always angered me about the Acoustimass module, however, is the use of a 4th-order bandpass design box with ports in both chambers. This increases low-end output without the extra size required by a traditional, single-ported design, but at the expense of greatly decreased over-excursion protection which is usually provided by the sealing of one of the chambers. Amar designed it to get more bass response out of a smaller box at the risk of driver damage at higher volumes.) I have to say that your high end measurements suggest that the years have indeed taken their toll; out of the box, those systems were designed, I believe, to make it just past 12k (to about 13k) before falling off. And if your JBLs really give you similar performance, then I'd say they need some serious work.

I have always maintained that if you are happy with the way a speaker sounds, then by all means buy it. I may hate Bose designs, but I'm not going to try to "educate" someone's ear to hear things the way I think they should hear them just to support my opinion of what's good. I will, however, give my opinion when it is solicited, as it was here.

lethargicmass wrote:First you tried to blame w00t for your mistakes, and now you're attacking me for attempting to point it out in as non-insulting a way as I could. I'm sorry you feel the need to blame others for your shortcomings. Please, by all means: continue to lash out at me if it makes you feel better.

But to continue your faux English lesson approach: Your error in grasping the English language occurred when you confused the word "allows" with the word "guarantees." See, in English, "allows" when used in this context means that something is possible; not that something is certain.

And let's not forget that the portion of the ad copy you cited was not the entire relevant section, and that when one reads the entire paragraph, one sees that the only two ways one could have interpreted it as you did would be if (a) you are not very good with the English language -- at which you claim here to be quite expert -- or (b) purposely attempting to twist the words to support your weak, self-serving point.

You're welcome.

It's funny how far you'll go not to admit that you're clearly wrong. I was being nice not just questioning your knowledge of the English language directly. It would now seem that you simply don't know what the word "all" actually means.

You're down to actually arguing that "allows" means that it might or might not provide the functionality that follows. Really? Really? Yep... you really are making that argument. (It would have helped you save face by just going with English as a second language.) And even in this case, it DOESN'T allow you to connect all devices that it accepts to a single HDMI cable. So even if your unusual interpretation of the sentence was taken, it still fails.


Woot, clearly mislabeled the capabilities of this receiver. There is no reasonable English translation of "allowing *all* your devices to be combined into a single HDMI cable", not meaning RCA output devices. No matter how hard you try to defend it; it was wrong.

chillipalmer wrote:Fin.

But seriously would one think it included speakers if it said something like "allows you to experience immersive, theater quality surround sound with 6 speakers."?

To me that means exactly what is says... this product allows me to do something with x piece of equipment also needed to experience it.

You're analogy isn't analogous.

The correct analogy here is "allows you to experience immersive (sic), theater quality surround sound with 6 speakers." And then being provided a unit that can only connect to 4 speakers. Or claiming that the unit will connect with wireless speakers, yet doesn't have a wireless antenna.

To make the analogy that you're trying unsuccessfully to make, it would require a complaint that it did not include the source devices.

Analogies can be difficult. Try to use them appropriately. It won't make you look quite so silly.

lethargicmass,

I'll post a few more comments about the Bose in awhile if you'll still be here to read them. Right now I have to go out.
I appreciate your honesty about never actually hearing or testing them, so many Bose-haters don't care, they just want to hate.

From Amazon about this model "HDMI v1.4a supports all 3D formats and Audio Return Channel."

From KeithIrwin: "3) no return audio channel support (it's okay for me, my TV doesn't support it anyway)"

I'm confused - which is correct? My TV is hooked up to ethernet, giving it the best Netflix connection (my Roku is wifi). So when I ordered, I was relying on the HDMI out to the Denon to carry that audio, but it looks like I'll need a separate audio out line as well - sort of defeating the purpose of buying this as a simple HDMI switch (I already have a 13 year hold Yamaha that isn't broken, but obviously pre-dates HDMI/HD). Maybe need to cancel and go get the low end pioneer.

lethargicmass wrote:(One design point that always angered me about the Acoustimass module,... Amar designed it to get more bass response out of a smaller box at the risk of driver damage at higher volumes.)

As far as sound quality goes, I like the sound of sealed boxes myself, most normal listeners would have no problem sacrificing a bit of audio quality for better WAF. This bass module doesn't sound bad, just not great.
As far as driver damage goes for this bass module, I have put mine through torture and have had no problems. Back in the early 90's when I bought this system, I was one of those ignorant listeners who always had the bass control knob cranked to the hilt and had the loudness button on. Always had the volume cranked to 10, had the doors in my apartment rattling from the bass 24/7. I'm not like that anymore, now I am a fanatic for flat freq response.
I think there is some kind of electronic protection for the bass drivers.

lethargicmass wrote: I have to say that your high end measurements suggest that the years have indeed taken their toll...

The freq above 6khz probably aren't falling off as much as my meter is showing. I use a Craftsmen SPL meter. I've measured quite a few systems with this same meter and the db's always start to fall off around 5khz. With testing db's at 85db, when I get up to 16khz-20khz, the meter reads that the volume has fallen down below 60db's, but it's actually still so loud that I need my hearing protection on. So I think my meter is very inaccurate above 5khz.

lethargicmass wrote:I may hate Bose designs, but I'm not going to try to "educate" someone's ear to hear things the way I think they should hear them just to support my opinion of what's good.

I believe Bose sets out to make speakers that sound good to the average person, if that means sacrificing some audio accuracy, then so be it. To me they do sound good. They definitely cover up flaws and other harsh sounding audio qualities of poor recordings. The Bose are not revealing such as my JBL's. But if I listen to a great recording through the JBL's that can give me goose bumps, listening to the same recording through the Bose will just sound good, not exemplary.
I can listen to the Bose all day long with the volume cranked to the max and not get any hearing fatigue. I do get hearing fatigue much quicker with my JBL's and others I've listened to.
To put this idea in terms of cars. You have the average person that likes the average car which isolates you from the road, when hitting pot holes, this car will soak it up and not jar you, the steering is slightly numb so you don't feel every imperfection in the road, the transmission shifts smoothly, the exhaust is quiet. This car is comfortable to drive every day, the majority of people are content with this. This is the Bose speaker.
Then you have the true sports car that feels everything the road has to offer, the transmission shifts hard, the exhaust is loud. On a smooth track this car is great, but take it on the road and pot holes become jarring, the steering twitches with imperfections in the road. This car is very revealing and only a small percentage of the public feel the need for this much driver involvement. This is something like high end pro JBL or high end PSB or Martin Logan's.
I believe the majority of people would love the sound of Bose, accurate or not.

I believe in giving opinions to help people make good decisions, but I get so aggravated when I hear "no highs, no lows, must be Bose," and hearing of Bose's supposed poor quality because all their money is spent on advertising.

Anyone figure out the connection between this, the Crapshoot game and the Bunnies Ogling Carrots

Please tell, I have no idea what you are referring to.

My old system as a RCA RTD260 RCA RTD260 here is a link to it. The speakers are all just 2 wire the sub has a RCA connection but has a power button on the front I am thinking the power is from the funky connection it fits in subwoofer control on this pic

maciver,
it appears your speakers are rated 3ohm, this AVR is rated for 6-16ohm loads.
A good AVR should handle the lower 3ohm speakers if not played loud.
How good is this AVR? I don't know.
How loud would be too loud? I don't know.
If you are anxious to play with this AVR, go ahead and use your old speakers for awhile, remember to keep the volume level lower. Listening at higher levels will make the AVR hot to the touch, monitor the AVR heat and keep it just warm, not hot.

To be safe, you should buy normal speakers. If you are on a budget, the Pioneer speakers that I mentioned a few posts earlier would be great. If you can afford a bigger budget for new speakers, ask and I/we can give recommendations for better speakers.

maciver,
I'll go ahead and recommend a better 5.1 speaker set up here: $746 or $930(this is with the better sub)

MAIN SPEAKERS: 1pr, Pioneer SP-BS41-LR ($175/pr shipped)
http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-BS41-LR-Watt-2-Way-Speaker/dp/B0045US6DE/ref=pd_sxp_f_pt

CENTER SPEAKER: 1, Pioneer SP-C21 ($95/ea shipped)
http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-C21-Watt-2-Way-Speaker/dp/B004MF4S0M/ref=pd_bxgy_e_text_c

SURROUND SPEAKERS: 1pr, Pioneer SP-BS21-LR ($81/pr shipped)
http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-BS21-LR-Watt-2-Way-Speaker/dp/B004MEWZE4/ref=pd_bxgy_e_text_c

SUBWOOFER: 1, HSU STF-2 ($395 shipped)
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/stf-2.html

If you can afford a better/more expensive subwoofer: 1, HSU VTF-2-MK4 ($580 shipped)
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2-mk4.html

Does this have a power rating range of 120-240v or is this just 120v? I know the product description says 120v, but just checking..

Well I got in on this one. Only problem i cann see is the fact that it's NOT showing in my account or shipped, processing, anything. An order from 2008 still shows, but not this one. Any ideas guys? Woot has my $150 so I know they got paid on my end.

And Woot comes through in Spades! Thanks guys--you know who you are

Got the receiver this past weekend. Got the thing hooked up in about 20 minutes (unplugging, dusting, etc.) and all my stuff plugged into it in and worked without a headache. Those HDMI inputs are awesome - I used to have acres of RCA cables back there. I have the DirecTV box, Samsung Blueray, Apple TV all went in no issues and the Receiver is plugged into a Samsung Plasma set with one HDMI. I do have to plug the Wii into the TV, but I am VERY impressed with this receiver. I am also very impressed with WOOT for the deal and the service.

Got mine a couple of weeks ago and finally I was able to set it up. When I hooked everything up and turned it on, something smelled like it was burning inside the receiver. Turned it off and attempted to turn it on, but a buzzing noise is all that comes out of the darn thing. It was so disappointing!! I was so excited to get this after reading all the reviews. Now I have no receiver and have to mail the darn thing back to Denon. What a hassle and it all happened in one day! I wasn't even able to use it!!!!!!