Slydon wrote:it seems that, when it comes to a super-intelligent gorilla in love with a human brain transplanted into a stolen robot body, calling them "gay" is sort of a stretch

they're transgender! let's not leave out tg peoples from a somewhat relevant discussion on a technicality.

llandar wrote:To put it another way (or maybe just dig myself deeper), let's change the adjective: what if they announced, in an effort to better represent their diverse audience, that the old Green Lantern is now black. Or Asian. Or Hispanic.
Is it a bold new step for minorities? I don't really think so, but as the white heterosexual male I'm willing to concede I'll never have the frame of reference to truly know. It feels like it's just changing the color palette and then telling people you're breaking new ground.

For what it's worth, that does happen occasionally, and to no fanfare whatsoever. I believe the rebooted Squadron Supreme "added" ethnicities and gender, for example.

Is that a step forward? Well, as long as it's not just a crutch (added as an afterthought), I don't think it's a step backwards, at least.

And by contrast, there were some very unhappy people when John Stewart debuted, since to many eyes, it looked like they were just booting Hal Jordan out to replace him with a stereotypical Angry Black Man, and after many tries (and DC gets a lot of extra credit for Mosaic, awkward as it was at times), he never really caught on until the Justice League cartoon.

Don't know where I'm going with this, other than I think they should be judged on the merits of how well the character is (re)done, rather than how closely it matches our preconceptions.

Slydon wrote:Calling an animal transgender seems like more of an insult to the community, personally, though I know you didn't mean it that way and I do take your overall point. But, to me, Lord Fanny seems she would be a better trans role model than a character who is ACTUALLY a gorilla in body and mind.

edit: I say this as someone who isn't trans, so feel free to correct me if you're closer to this issue than I

i have no useful knowledge on the topic at all. i just get the impression from various wikipedia articles that "transgender" is an umbrella term that pretty much covers anything that doesn't match "conventional" labels. ""Transgender" does not imply any specific form of sexual orientation; transgender people may identify as heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, polysexual, or asexual; some may consider conventional sexual orientation labels inadequate or inapplicable to them. The precise definition for transgender remains in flux"

no1 wrote:The precise definition for transgender remains in flux"

Transgender is a specific term with a specific definition, it's just that the definition doesn't specify orientation.

You can say somebody is "male" or "Asian" without specifying whether they're gay or straight; does that mean those words are vaguely defined terms with their true meanings in flux? Yeah, didn't think so. Same for transgender.

Transgender people are those who were born with their body belonging to one gender and their brain belonging to the other. It isn't about a boy "wanting" to be a girl, it's much deeper than that. It's someone with boy parts who identifies on a very basic primal level as a girl.

I'm not trans myself, but many close friends are, and I'm told the feeling of having the "wrong" body parts can be horrifying nightmare material at worst, uncomfortable and awkward at best. Something I've also heard described repeatedly is that it often feels shameful, almost like those dreams where you're back in high school, walking through the halls totally naked, and nobody seems to notice. You feel like everyone must be staring at you, and you want to cover yourself up, even though you're the only one who realizes that something is very much wrong.

I can't imagine going through life feeling that way every time I leave the house.

Trans people can be gay or straight. Generally, they refer to themselves using the pronoun of the gender they identify with, not the one they were born as. The label gay or straight is applied to the "true" gender, not the biological one. So: a transgender woman is someone born with male parts who identifies as female. If she feels attraction towards women, she is typically considered to be a gay trans woman, not a straight male, even though she has a male's body and a love of women. If she's attracted to men, then she'll identify as a straight woman, not a gay male. Make sense?

It may seem like it's all just semantics, but being trans and being gay are definitely not the same thing.

chaospearl wrote:Transgender is a specific term with a specific definition, it's just that the definition doesn't specify orientation.

You can say somebody is "male" or "Asian" without specifying whether they're gay or straight; does that mean those words are vaguely defined terms with their true meanings in flux? Yeah, didn't think so. Same for transgender.

Transgender people are those who were born with their body belonging to one gender and their brain belonging to the other. It isn't about a boy "wanting" to be a girl, it's much deeper than that. It's someone with boy parts who identifies on a very basic primal level as a girl. I'm not trans myself, but many close friends are, and I'm told the feeling of having the "wrong" body parts can be horrifying nightmare material at worst, uncomfortable and awkward at best.

Trans people can be gay or straight. Generally, they refer to themselves using the pronoun of the gender they identify with, not the one they were born as. The label gay or straight is applied to the "true" gender, not the biological one. So: a transgender woman is someone born with male parts who identifies as female. If she feels attraction towards women, she is typically considered to be a gay trans woman, not a straight male, even though she has a male's body and a love of women. If she's attracted to men, then she'll identify as a straight woman, not a gay male. Make sense?

It may seem like it's all just semantics, but being trans and being gay are definitely not the same thing.

if you feel that the wikipedia article on the topic is in error, perhaps you should try rewriting it.

no1 wrote:if you feel that the wikipedia article on the topic is in error, perhaps you should try rewriting it.

Chaospearl describes the correct medical definition, something for which Wikipedia is not known. It is in error, but since it's not a reliable medical resource in general/overall, I personally wouldn't recommend that anyone bother with rewriting it. *shrug*

no1 wrote:if you feel that the wikipedia article on the topic is in error, perhaps you should try rewriting it.

I wasn't trying to say that you were wrong - or that the Wikipedia article was wrong. If that's how it came across, I apologize. It's kinda difficult to be "right" or "wrong" when it comes to the topic of labels and how people apply them. I only quoted your post because the last part seemed off to me, and I wanted to clarify the confusion from the viewpoint of someone familiar with the transgender community.

I should have started out by saying that I am a gay woman and a good number of my close friends are transgendered, and because of that I've spent a lot of time socializing with various trans groups. That doesn't make me any kind of expert, but you specifically stated that your information came from Wikipedia (a somewhat untrustworthy source) and when someone elects to disclaim their source in that way, I just assume what they're saying is, "I don't know much about this myself, but here's what I've read, which may or may not be reliable. Anyone have a better source?"

As it happens I do have a better source, so I thought it might be enlightening to share what I've picked up from experience with the actual trans community. Again, I didn't intend to belittle anything you said -- or to claim that my experience is the one and only truth.

The thing is, Wikipedia often presents the very broadest view possible so that every imaginable circumstance is mentioned. So, yes, there are transgender people who don't feel the label is applicable to their situation. There are many who don't use labels at all, and I'm sure there are some who use them in the exact opposite way from what I described. I know people who slide up and down the Kinsey scale as easily as changing their socks, and choose to call themselves simply "queer" because it's all-inclusive.

That being said, I described the way the terminology is typically used within the trans community. I wanted to make clear that there is indeed a specific definition for the term "transgender," and a generally accepted usage for the various related labels.

That doesn't mean every trans person out there uses these terms the same way. It isn't something where you can be right or wrong -- it's just that the Wikipedia article you referred to made it seem like every other trans person out there is choosing an arbitrary label for themselves based on personal preference. And that's just not true. There is a method to the madness; there are labels that are used by the majority of the LGBT community. Not everyone, but most.

That is all. Maybe there's a trans person lurking out there who wants to clarify from personal experience?

Edited because coffee = clarity.

chaospearl wrote:I wasn't trying to say that you were wrong - or that the Wikipedia article was wrong. If that's how it came across, I apologize. It's kinda difficult to be "right" or "wrong" when it comes to the topic of labels and how people apply them. I only quoted your post because the last part seemed off to me, and I wanted to clarify the confusion from the viewpoint of someone familiar with the transgender community.

I should have started out by saying that I am a gay woman and a good number of my close friends are transgendered, and because of that I've spent a lot of time socializing with various trans groups. That doesn't make me any kind of expert, but you specifically stated that your information came from Wikipedia (a somewhat untrustworthy source) and when someone elects to disclaim their source in that way, I just assume what they're saying is, "I don't know much about this myself, but here's what I've read, which may or may not be reliable." Your knowledge wasn't firsthand, so I thought it might be enlightening to share what I've picked up from experience with the actual source. Again, I didn't intend to offend you or to claim that my experience is the one and only truth.

The thing is, Wikipedia often presents the very broadest view possible so that every possible permutation is mentioned. Sure, there are lots of transgender -- and gay, and bi -- people who don't feel a particular label is applicable to their situation. There are plenty who don't use labels at all, and I'm sure there are some who use them in the exact opposite way from what I described. I know people who slide up and down the Kinsey scale as easily as changing their socks, and choose to call themselves simply "queer" because it's all-inclusive.

That being said, I described the way the terminology is typically used within the community because I wanted to make clear that there actually is a specific definition for transgender, and a generally accepted usage for the various related labels. That doesn't mean every trans person out there uses these terms the same way. It isn't something where you can be right or wrong - it's just that based on the Wikipedia article you referred to, it made it seem like every other trans person out there is choosing an arbitrary label for themselves based on personal preference, and that's just not true. There is a method to the madness; there are labels that are used by the majority of the LGBT community. Not everyone, but most.

That is all. Maybe there's a trans person lurking out there who wants to clarify from personal experience?

Edited because coffee = clarity.

i think something like this really should be added to the wiki article.