ellencherry8


quality posts: 0 Private Messages ellencherry8
FreePlayPSP wrote:Welcome to the internet, where you sometimes see things you don't like.



Totally fine with seeing things I don't like. I just find it curious when a company affiliated with Amazon, where I've spent many thousands of dollars, sends me a marketing email, presumably hoping I'll become a customer. Then this is one of the first things I see on their site when I come to look around. If this were a blog or something, I wouldn't think twice. /shrug

theco2


quality posts: 48 Private Messages theco2
FreePlayPSP wrote:Welcome to the internet, where you sometimes see things you don't like.


Will you be my new bestest buddy? We can worship Thor and IPU and FSM and live happily ever after.


theco2


quality posts: 48 Private Messages theco2

By the way, atheists don't believe in hell, either.


oclafretep


quality posts: 1 Private Messages oclafretep

I am an atheist, put here by God to test the faith of the faithful.

How about that?

theco2


quality posts: 48 Private Messages theco2

Dear ellencherry8,

Look at your avatar and tell me you can take these forums 100% seriously. I'm enjoying this conversation, but then again, I get a kick out of controversy, like this.

On another note, take a look around the rest of Woot! because I think you will really like what you find here.

Love,
Me!

p.s. Sorry you got a bad start.


nanderhoff


quality posts: 0 Private Messages nanderhoff

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty." -Albert Einstein

ellencherry8


quality posts: 0 Private Messages ellencherry8
theco2 wrote:Dear ellencherry8,

Look at your avatar and tell me you can take these forums 100% seriously. I'm enjoying this conversation, but then again, I get a kick out of controversy, like this.

On another note, take a look around the rest of Woot! because I think you will really like what you find here.

Love,
Me!

p.s. Sorry you got a bad start.



Thanks, theco2. I didn't pick the avatar, but point taken. One reason I find the poll offensive is that I doubt this site would ever, for example, replace "atheists" with "Christians" or "Muslims" in such a poll. But who knows.

Not trying to take things too seriously. I enjoy snark and debate and offensive humor with the best of them. I just wasn't expecting it from a retail site that purportedly wants my business.

I will take your advice and look around. Thanks again for the response!

marymarauder10


quality posts: 0 Private Messages marymarauder10
theco2 wrote:Show me complete and irrefutable proof that a sky daddy does exist and I will forever believe, but until then...

May the Force be with you!



That's the whole point in having faith in something. Believing in something that you can't prove here and now.

Derek Bjornstad

atx85


quality posts: 2 Private Messages atx85
ellencherry8 wrote:Totally fine with seeing things I don't like. I just find it curious when a company affiliated with Amazon, where I've spent many thousands of dollars, sends me a marketing email, presumably hoping I'll become a customer. Then this is one of the first things I see on their site when I come to look around. If this were a blog or something, I wouldn't think twice. /shrug



Joking aside, one of the main reasons I've continued to come back to woot! is because of the community and the employee's ability to keep things interesting, whether it be with the polls, comments on products, or even showing that they are normal people just like the rest of us.

Participate in the discussion, if you please. If it offends you, don't take it personally and move along. This is a great place that will, from time to time, invoke conversation/thoughts that some people like to pretend doesn't exist or simply want to avoid. Welcome to woot! and hopefully you'll keep coming around.

marymarauder10


quality posts: 0 Private Messages marymarauder10
FreePlayPSP wrote:Yeah... no. Here's the thing. Accountability does not exist in the Christian moral system. The single deciding factor that determines whether you are rewarded or punished is your belief in Jesus, not your behavior. Your behavior is totally irrelevant. You could live a life of moral depravity and debauchery, killing every other human being on the planet, and then repent and become a Christian the moment before you die - and you'll be welcomed to the loving arms of God, given a mansion in heaven where you will be free from pain and suffering forever. Meanwhile, a pious believer in another religion could devote her entire life to helping those who suffer, are less fortunate, are oppressed, and so on. Then, when she dies, she gets agony and everlasting torment in a lake of fire.

There is no justice in this system. No accountability. Only madness. You can be more evil than Hitler and escape punishment; you can be the biggest saint who ever lived and be tortured for it.

Meanwhile, atheists want to actually hold human beings accountable while they're alive. You know... the only life anyone actually knows we have. The only time we can be sure that anyone gets justice or punishment as fits their behavior.

By the way, if your moral compass is defined by the God of the Old Testament, I don't want you anywhere near me. I can't be sure that you're not going to obey his command to invade my city and slaughter everyone who lives in it, save for the virgins who you'll take as your "wives". The moral standard exhibited by God and his chosen people in the Bible is not one any civilized person should consider worth obeying.



Where have you ever read that if you go around killing everyone and then at the last second say your sorry, and you'll go to heaven? I've grown up in a very Christian community and was taught that you don't get to heaven by your actions of one moment. You get to heaven by your actions over your life. Lead a good life and do your best and you'll be fine.

Derek Bjornstad

artorios


quality posts: 3 Private Messages artorios
nanderhoff wrote:"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty." -Albert Einstein



And I can't imagine a God who is anything less that utter and complete perfection, holiness, and glory. And I'm eternally grateful that despite his goodness--so infinite that my own best righteousness is as filthy rags in comparison--he still loved me enough to made a way that I can repent and come to him, and daily save me from my sinful nature.

That is a God worth worshipping.

ThunderThighs


quality posts: 546 Private Messages ThunderThighs

Staff

Gotta say, I'm really impressed with the debate so far. Posts have been intelligent and thoughtful. Nobody has resorted to name calling.

Good job, Wooters!



Customer Service: support@woot.com ••• Allow 1-2 business days for response.
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theco2


quality posts: 48 Private Messages theco2
ThunderThighs wrote:Gotta say, I'm really impressed with the debate so far. Posts have been intelligent and thoughtful. Nobody has resorted to name calling.

Good job, Wooters!

You poopie head!

There, is that better?


nastyducky


quality posts: 8 Private Messages nastyducky

Religion: the most boring subject on earth.

And BTW, it's "drivel", not "dribble". Look it up.

rworth01


quality posts: 2 Private Messages rworth01

When I read the bible all I can see is evil and if you don't then you probably haven't read it. Smashing your enemies babies on rocks, eating your own children, justification of terrible act, slavery, human sacrifice and so on and so on. I want no part of it. I got my morals from my dad and quite frankly i find the morals of many religious people to be appalling.

theco2


quality posts: 48 Private Messages theco2
nastyducky wrote:
And BTW, it's "drivel", not "dribble". Look it up.

What if I have a hole in my lip?


bsmith1


quality posts: 102 Private Messages bsmith1

"How do you feel about atheists?"

I feel about them when my hands covered in scented oils! ♫Your atheist body is a wonderland!♫

theco2


quality posts: 48 Private Messages theco2
bsmith1 wrote:"How do you feel about atheists?"

I feel about them when my hands covered in scented oils! ♫Your atheist body is a wonderland!♫

Stranger danger!


bsmith1


quality posts: 102 Private Messages bsmith1
marymarauder10 wrote:That's the whole point in having faith in something. Believing in something that you can't prove here and now.



Right. It's like a child having imagination time. It's not real, but it's fun to pretend! It's all fun and games until you try to convince others to live by your imaginary friend's rules. When you do that, it's time to prove your imaginary friend is real or stop pretending.
Faith is simply optimism and trust. I have faith my kitty will use the litter box based on my past experience, but that doesn't mean she always will. Still, my faith is based on real-world observations. The kitteh has earned my trust in that regard. My trust (or faith) must be earned and not given blindly. I wouldn't put my faith in a kitty I have never met before.

heatherlbullock


quality posts: 0 Private Messages heatherlbullock
dtairtime wrote:I really don't care what anyone is as long as they don't try to impose their beliefs on me any more than I try to impose mine on theirs.

Which is zip by the way!


I completely agree. Especially when you say "I'm not interested" and they continue to try to get you to talk about it.

marymarauder10


quality posts: 0 Private Messages marymarauder10
bsmith1 wrote:Right. It's like a child having imagination time. It's not real, but it's fun to pretend! It's all fun and games until you try to convince others to live by your imaginary friend's rules. When you do that, it's time to prove your imaginary friend is real or stop pretending.
Faith is simply optimism and trust. I have faith my kitty will use the litter box based on my past experience, but that doesn't mean she always will. Still, my faith is based on real-world observations. The kitteh has earned my trust in that regard. My trust (or faith) must be earned and not given blindly. I wouldn't put my faith in a kitty I have never met before.



Do you believe there's a million dollars? Have you ever actually seen a million dollars? Do you believe there's a flag planted on the moon? Have you personally seen this flag planted on the moon or just what you've seen on tv? Have you ever suffered from Uveomeningoencephalitic Syndrome? Just because you don't personally experience something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You believe in things every day that you don't personally experience. This isn't any different for the people who believe in God.

Derek Bjornstad

itoaseik


quality posts: 2 Private Messages itoaseik
ellencherry8 wrote:Thanks, theco2. I didn't pick the avatar, but point taken. One reason I find the poll offensive is that I doubt this site would ever, for example, replace "atheists" with "Christians" or "Muslims" in such a poll. But who knows.

Not trying to take things too seriously. I enjoy snark and debate and offensive humor with the best of them. I just wasn't expecting it from a retail site that purportedly wants my business.

I will take your advice and look around. Thanks again for the response!



I believe they chose to phrase the question that way because most atheists or non-religious people tend to have more of a sense of humor about this stuff. Sometimes. Of course there are annoying blowhards on both sides, but religion is a weird subject.

I had a pleasant discussion with a very smart friend once, where he explained that the Bible is the (internally consistent) literal word of God and the Earth is 6,000 years old. Doesn't make sense to me, but whatever.

I suppose my middle school history teacher was right when he accused me (and all his classes) of being secular humanists. He was an "Acornist," and a funny guy.

hwalsh10284


quality posts: 1 Private Messages hwalsh10284

The only thing more annoying is christians. The closest I can come to my beliefs is diesm.

Deism is a theological position concerning the relationship between "the Creator" and the natural world. Deistic viewpoints emerged during the scientific revolution of 17th-century Europe and came to exert a powerful influence during the eighteenth century enlightenment. Deism stood between the narrow dogmatism of the period and skepticism. Though deists rejected atheism, they often were called "atheists" by more traditional theists. There were a number of different forms in the 17th and 18th century. In England, deism included a range of people from anti-Christian to un-Christian theists.

Deism holds that God does not intervene with the functioning of the natural world in any way, allowing it to run according to the laws of nature.

I also believe when you are dead you are dead. No heaven no hell no purgatory no limbo. And just to be clear religions have caused more pain, suffering, death and hate than any things prior to contemporary secular humanism. So suck on that Sheldon Cooper and Joss Whedon.

Strychnyne


quality posts: 2 Private Messages Strychnyne

I'm a follower of Christ. I'll never be ashamed of that. I have friends from every creed/choice/walk of life. I'll never try to force anyone to believe as I do AND I believe that science is VERY important in our lives.

If you can not judge me for the way I live my life and doing no harm to others or myself, then I'll be glad to call you friend. Just don't think you're better than or worse than I am. We're all the same and I'm no one's judge.

marymarauder10


quality posts: 0 Private Messages marymarauder10
Strychnyne wrote:I'm a follower of Christ. I'll never be ashamed of that. I have friends from every creed/choice/walk of life. I'll never try to force anyone to believe as I do AND I believe that science is VERY important in our lives.

If you can not judge me for the way I live my life and doing no harm to others or myself, then I'll be glad to call you friend. Just don't think you're better than or worse than I am. We're all the same and I'm no one's judge.



I can back that up. I too have friends that have many different beliefs. If they have any questions about my faith, then I'll let them know about it...otherwise, you are free to choose what you believe in.

Derek Bjornstad

komatiite


quality posts: 0 Private Messages komatiite
bpfordte wrote:I've found that those that deny the existence of God are usually just looking for a way to avoid accountability. Our moral compass is defined by God, but if you take God out of the equation then our morals are defined by ourselves - flawed, and sinful humans. You think God created us to sleep with the same sex or kill our unborn? No, those are the result of humans trying to define morality.

Just a side note: I believe that those that believe there is a God, but don't believe in His Son, Jesus, as their Savior are just as lost as those that deny the existence of God completely. The Devil believes there is a God, but it's not going to get him out of hell.



I have no trouble leading a full and ethical life without reference to any divinity. I don't need fear of eternal punishment to be honest, faithful to my wife, charitable, and caring of others. I freely admit that I don't understand the need some other folks have for the threats implicit in tales of sin and damnation. So, theists, work on your own game (as I put it) or refer to Matthew 7:3 if you need divine authority to get off other peoples' backs.

Revolt4Fun


quality posts: 0 Private Messages Revolt4Fun

Collectivism is dangerous regardless of the label you wear.

Atheism is just as dangerous and utterly absurd as Catholicism, the end product is always extremism, and extremism is relative.

darkchylde13


quality posts: 1 Private Messages darkchylde13
FreePlayPSP wrote:Yeah... no. Here's the thing. Accountability does not exist in the Christian moral system. The single deciding factor that determines whether you are rewarded or punished is your belief in Jesus, not your behavior. Your behavior is totally irrelevant. You could live a life of moral depravity and debauchery, killing every other human being on the planet, and then repent and become a Christian the moment before you die - and you'll be welcomed to the loving arms of God, given a mansion in heaven where you will be free from pain and suffering forever. Meanwhile, a pious believer in another religion could devote her entire life to helping those who suffer, are less fortunate, are oppressed, and so on. Then, when she dies, she gets agony and everlasting torment in a lake of fire.

There is no justice in this system. No accountability. Only madness. You can be more evil than Hitler and escape punishment; you can be the biggest saint who ever lived and be tortured for it.

Meanwhile, atheists want to actually hold human beings accountable while they're alive. You know... the only life anyone actually knows we have. The only time we can be sure that anyone gets justice or punishment as fits their behavior.

By the way, if your moral compass is defined by the God of the Old Testament, I don't want you anywhere near me. I can't be sure that you're not going to obey his command to invade my city and slaughter everyone who lives in it, save for the virgins who you'll take as your "wives". The moral standard exhibited by God and his chosen people in the Bible is not one any civilized person should consider worth obeying.



Best comment so far, I join in the standing ovation! Whether their is a god or not is of course debatable, much like whether there is or is not bigfoot, there is the possibility of course, but all you have are the claims of people you have never met nor can be assured of their sanity or motives. But the above still holds true, that this entire religion is based solely on belief, not actions. Sure there are the commandments, but they are more like suggestions, because as far as I'm aware you can break the majority if not all of them, and still get into heaven if you believe and say you're sorry basically. As long as you don't take the lords name in vain apparently...as I'm told this is the one true unforgivable sin. Really...?

alexasnows


quality posts: 0 Private Messages alexasnows

Does anyone seriously believe that they will die and wake up and Uncle Harry or whomever will be waiting there to greet you? I mean it would be nice but come on.

bsmith1


quality posts: 102 Private Messages bsmith1
marymarauder10 wrote:Do you believe there's a million dollars? Have you ever actually seen a million dollars? Do you believe there's a flag planted on the moon? Have you personally seen this flag planted on the moon or just what you've seen on tv? Have you ever suffered from Uveomeningoencephalitic Syndrome? Just because you don't personally experience something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You believe in things every day that you don't personally experience. This isn't any different for the people who believe in God.



No, not a million physical dollars all at once. I have, however, probably seen a million different dollars in the course of my life. I have observed that I have dollars, other people in line have dollars, and the cash register has dollars. I have seen budgets and bank accounts worth over a million. Using rational thought, I can deduce that there is a million dollars in the world. My conclusion that a million dollars exists is based on real-world observations. Besides, if humanity had any doubt that it existed, we could just pile all our money on a table to put the argument to rest. We don’t do need to do that because that’s a silly argument.

No, I have not been to the moon. I do know that other people have tried to disprove this and they failed. True, I’m basing my conclusion off of secondhand evidence presented on TV and other sources, but it’s done with a scientific mindset. If there was any doubt, why not just build a telescope (or satellite) and take some pictures of the moon where the flag is supposed to be. If you don’t see anything then you can present your evidence to disprove it. The point is, it would be very possible to disprove this claim if there was any real doubt. I would assume Russia or China would have called us out on that one by now. The reason it hasn’t been disproved is because it’s real. The great thing about science is you must come up with some kind of tangible evidence to support your claims if you want to be taken seriously. Right now, the folks who claim the flag is really on the moon have more credible proof than the doubters.

I don’t know anything about that Syndrome. You could have made it up for all I know. I have no need to know if it’s real at this time.

It’s not about personally experiencing things. It’s about having tangible proof to support your beliefs. The only argument for “the Bible is factual” is that it’s written in the Bible… You can’t make an argument for the Bible by quoting the Bible… That sort of circular logic doesn’t hold up in any rational argument. Show me some sort of proof that the world is only a few thousand years old. Show me some proof that 2 of every critter in the world could fit on one boat. You gotta bring something to the table because scientific observation and the laws of physics make a pretty good argument against it.

worlebird


quality posts: 3 Private Messages worlebird
theother1 wrote:Show me complete and irrefutable proof that a sky daddy doesn't exist.



So, do you believe in everything that can't be disproven? Bigfoot, aliens, Atlantis, reptilians, etc.? My basic standard is that I require evidence first, then I will believe, not the other way around.

bsmith1


quality posts: 102 Private Messages bsmith1
worlebird wrote:... My basic standard is that I require evidence first, then I will believe, not the other way around.



Right! That's basically the point I was driving at in my wall of text above. If you're making the claim that something exists, the burden of proof is on you to come up with convincing evidence.

thumperchick


quality posts: 234 Private Messages thumperchick

It is almost impossible to make a point as a theist vs atheist without sounding like a jerk.

Both sides literally believe that the other side is ignorant.
The theists believe that atheists are ignoring or missing a huge piece of their humanity by not having faith in a God.
The atheists believe that all believers have an imaginary friend who rules their life.

It amazes me that this debate holds together as well as it does sometimes.

theco2


quality posts: 48 Private Messages theco2
worlebird wrote:So, do you believe in everything that can't be disproven? Bigfoot, aliens, Atlantis, reptilians, etc.? My basic standard is that I require evidence first, then I will believe, not the other way around.


It amazes me how many people who believe in some type of deity are also superstitious and/or believe in ghosts and other spirits.


marymarauder10


quality posts: 0 Private Messages marymarauder10
bsmith1 wrote:No, not a million physical dollars all at once. I have, however, probably seen a million different dollars in the course of my life. I have observed that I have dollars, other people in line have dollars, and the cash register has dollars. I have seen budgets and bank accounts worth over a million. Using rational thought, I can deduce that there is a million dollars in the world. My conclusion that a million dollars exists is based on real-world observations. Besides, if humanity had any doubt that it existed, we could just pile all our money on a table to put the argument to rest. We don’t do need to do that because that’s a silly argument.

No, I have not been to the moon. I do know that other people have tried to disprove this and they failed. True, I’m basing my conclusion off of secondhand evidence presented on TV and other sources, but it’s done with a scientific mindset. If there was any doubt, why not just build a telescope (or satellite) and take some pictures of the moon where the flag is supposed to be. If you don’t see anything then you can present your evidence to disprove it. The point is, it would be very possible to disprove this claim if there was any real doubt. I would assume Russia or China would have called us out on that one by now. The reason it hasn’t been disproved is because it’s real. The great thing about science is you must come up with some kind of tangible evidence to support your claims if you want to be taken seriously. Right now, the folks who claim the flag is really on the moon have more credible proof than the doubters.

I don’t know anything about that Syndrome. You could have made it up for all I know. I have no need to know if it’s real at this time.

It’s not about personally experiencing things. It’s about having tangible proof to support your beliefs. The only argument for “the Bible is factual” is that it’s written in the Bible… You can’t make an argument for the Bible by quoting the Bible… That sort of circular logic doesn’t hold up in any rational argument. Show me some sort of proof that the world is only a few thousand years old. Show me some proof that 2 of every critter in the world could fit on one boat. You gotta bring something to the table because scientific observation and the laws of physics make a pretty good argument against it.



A couple things here...

You completely switched your argument. We were talking about the belief in God and now you changed it to whether or not the Bible is factual and Noah's Ark. There were many different writers in the making of the Bible. They all had different accounts on things. Some more optimistic, some more pessimistic. They would have written things according to their views on it. Do you have anything disproving that what was written is false? I doubt it. Just like I can't think of anything off the top of my head proving that it's factual. There are things in life that I would consider miracles while you might consider them mere coincidences. That's life. We choose what we want to believe (or not believe) whether we can prove it or not.

Derek Bjornstad

cappomutato


quality posts: 19 Private Messages cappomutato

Theists don't believe in the vast majority of other gods. Atheists go one god further.

yay taco

thumperchick


quality posts: 234 Private Messages thumperchick

I think for some people, faith is like being born colorblind. If you have it, you understand it - and you can try to explain it, but if you don't have it, you can't understand it fully.

(Expand this to people who experience anything we quantify as "supernatural" or what have you.)

Either you have it and get it, or you don't have it and don't get it.

ninjapineapples


quality posts: 0 Private Messages ninjapineapples
greyhaven wrote:I believe there are intelligent people on both sides.
I also believe that if the Christians would stop shouting hell and damnation at the atheists and trying to shove Jesus down people's throats they would probably find people asking more about him.
I also believe that if the atheists would quit calling religious people ignoramuses they would find people wanting to get along with them a lot more.
I also believe that the majority of both sides don't do the above, it's just the extremities that we see being jerks. I'm a Christian, my best friend, up until I moved away to another state, was an atheist (still is to the best of my knowledge), and he and I got along great despite our differences in beliefs.
I believe it's a lot easier to be a jerk to people over the internet than in person, so let's try not to on this forum?
Last thing I believe (well, that I believe and am going to tell you). I believe that, in the words of C.S. Lewis, "We are halfhearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased."



You. I like you. I couldn't agree more! Thanks for saying exactly what I feel is the case!

bsmith1


quality posts: 102 Private Messages bsmith1
marymarauder10 wrote:A couple things here...

You completely switched your argument. We were talking about the belief in God and now you changed it to whether or not the Bible is factual and Noah's Ark. There were many different writers in the making of the Bible. They all had different accounts on things. Some more optimistic, some more pessimistic. They would have written things according to their views on it. Do you have anything disproving that what was written is false? I doubt it. Just like I can't think of anything off the top of my head proving that it's factual. There are things in life that I would consider miracles while you might consider them mere coincidences. That's life. We choose what we want to believe (or not believe) whether we can prove it or not.



I mentioned the Bible because that is generally the argument for the existence of God. Your argument is that miracles are an indication of god. When amazing things happen, there might be something at play we don't yet understand, but there's no evidence to suggest it's due to a god we should be worshiping.

marymarauder10


quality posts: 0 Private Messages marymarauder10
bsmith1 wrote:I mentioned the Bible because that is generally the argument for the existence of God. Your argument is that miracles are an indication of god. When amazing things happen, there might be something at play we don't yet understand, but there's no evidence to suggest it's due to a god we should be worshiping.



And there's no evidence suggesting it's not...

Derek Bjornstad